# Why do the some of same people think alcohol is good think guns are bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 8, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383 "2013-03-08T15:06:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/21 "2013-03-08T15:35:31Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You could put in the system if the are a member of AA, or had a history of DUIs. If it saves one life… AA is anonymous, and there are already penalties for DUIs. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/22 "2013-03-08T15:37:44Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think both should be legal, but I can at least see some consistency in the view that both should be illegal. However with all the cons associated with alcohol use (cirrosis, drunk driving, fetal alcoholism, increased risk of both suicide and homicide, etc) I can’t see any consistency in the view that pros of alcohol outweigh those cons but the pros of owning guns don’t outweigh the associated cons. Seems hypocritical to me and based on selfish wants rather than principle. > > So what am I missing? The filter in your brain that stops you from posting when you’re drunk. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/23 "2013-03-08T15:38:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Should we maybe do background checks so that criminals and alcoholics can’t get alcohol? I wouldn’t recommend it, but if that’s what you think we should do, lay out a plan. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/24 "2013-03-08T15:39:47Z")
**Kable** , could you please point out the people mentioned in the title of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/25 "2013-03-08T15:40:07Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Heh. You don’t know what that second A means, do you… Good point. You got me. We’ll have to go with drunk drivers, mothers of FAS babies, those with convictions of alcohol related domestic violence, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/26 "2013-03-08T15:42:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > **Kable** , could you please point out the people mentioned in the title of this thread? It’s hypothetical, I’m not singling you out at all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/27 "2013-03-08T15:43:17Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What a ridiculous statement to make. So, drinking in moderation is fine and relatively risk free, but anyone buying a gun is doing so with the intent to kill someone? That’s the sole purpose of owning a gun, in your lofty opinion? On a subconscious level, yes. When you carry a hammer, it’s because you’re looking for something to nail. When you pack heat, you’re looking for a reason to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/28 "2013-03-08T15:45:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Why? Did I claim that we need to be exceptionally concerned with death by ‘sarin gas’? You seem exceptionally good at strawman creation…other than that, not much, sadly. We did this very discussion just a few months ago. Here’s your post claiming that you understood the point then: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807033&postcount=73](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807033&postcount=73) I suspected that you didn’t actually understand it, but I don’t feel particularly good to be validated in that suspicion. It’s more frustrating than anything else. In addition, you are misusing the word strawman. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/29 "2013-03-08T15:47:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > On a subconscious level, yes. When you carry a hammer, it’s because you’re looking for something to nail. When you pack heat, you’re looking for a reason to use it. Looking for a reason to use it does not equate to looking for someone to kill, however…unless you assume that the only use for a gun is to kill someone. Which brings me back to the original question that you didn’t answer. There are literally hundreds of millions of guns in the US and millions and millions of gun owners. Yet, there are less than 15000 gun related deaths per year, even counting suicides. How do you explain the obvious different between your statement and the numbers? We’ll leave aside your assertion that alcohol is ok juxtaposed with the large number of alcohol related deaths per year and just focus on this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/30 "2013-03-08T15:49:13Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It’s hypothetical, I’m not singling you out at all. ?? I never said you were. I’m asking who you are referring to in the title. Who _did_ you have in mind when you wrote the title? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/31 "2013-03-08T15:49:21Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > We’ll have to go with drunk drivers, mothers of FAS babies, those with convictions of alcohol related domestic violence, etc. Perhaps you are right, we should ban both guns and alcohol. But, since we don’t really know what unintended consequences will result, perhaps we should try it out on only one of them at a time. And it is only reasonable to choose gun owners first, because they are a smaller group than alcohol drinkers, and any negative consequences would be minimized. You must agree, that is the reasonable approach. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/32 "2013-03-08T15:49:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > We did this very discussion just a few months ago. > > Here’s your post claiming that you understood the point then: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807033&postcount=73](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807033&postcount=73) > > I suspected that you didn’t actually understand it, but I don’t feel particularly good to be validated in that suspicion. It’s more frustrating than anything else. > > In addition, you are misusing the word strawman. _sigh_ I’m not making a 1 for 1 comparison here either, Hentor. I’m sorry to say that it’s you who are failing to grasp the argument or what I said. And I’d say that my use of strawman applied to you is dead on. Did you have anything rational and meaningful you wanted to say in this thread, or was this another of your drive by posts just to remind me that, sadly, you are still out there? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/33 "2013-03-08T15:51:46Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It’s hypothetical, I’m not singling you out at all. But you say “some people”. So who are these people? How many of them are there and how much influence do they have? What arguments are _they_ making? How do you expect us to speak to the motivations and thought processes of people we know nothing about and who, being hypothetical, may not exist?\* \*I’m fairly sure there are people somewhere who hold those positions, but I’m not convinced it’s a significant number. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/34 "2013-03-08T16:00:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think both should be legal, but I can at least see some consistency in the view that both should be illegal. However with all the cons associated with alcohol use (cirrosis, drunk driving, fetal alcoholism, increased risk of both suicide and homicide, etc) I can’t see any consistency in the view that pros of alcohol outweigh those cons but the pros of owning guns don’t outweigh the associated cons. Seems hypocritical to me and based on selfish wants rather than principle. > > So what am I missing? You are missing the fact that banning guns has a proven record of success while banning alcohol has a proven record of failure. Almost all first-world countries either make private ownership of firearms illegal or put severe restrictions on it. Murder rates in every other first world country are much lower than in the United States, without exception. Banning alcohol, on the other hand, makes drinking problems and associated crimes much worse. The USA did so with the 18th amendment in 1919 and, after observing the results, overturned it with the 21st amendment fourteen years later. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/35 "2013-03-08T16:01:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > ?? I never said you were. I’m asking who you are referring to in the title. Who _did_ you have in mind when you wrote the title? I’ll be happy to tell you as soon as you answer my question (that you have ignored several times) regarding if you think AR15s or any other guns legal today should be made illegal. Fair? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/36 "2013-03-08T16:02:24Z")
> [@XT](#): > > _sigh_ I’m not making a 1 for 1 comparison here either, Hentor. I’m sorry to say that it’s you who are failing to grasp the argument or what I said. Okay, let’s keep it simple. Cite your evidence for this statement: > [@XT](#): > > You are much more likely to be killed in an alcohol related accident than by a gun. As much as an order of magnitude more likely if you put in all of the alcohol related harm and health risks as well… I’d be particularly interested in your evidence for “an order of magnitude”. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/37 "2013-03-08T16:03:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Perhaps you are right, we should ban both guns and alcohol. I don’t think we should ban either. Do you think we should ban either or both, or maybe just ban a subset of either or both? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/38 "2013-03-08T16:07:38Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You are missing the fact that banning guns has a proven record of success while banning alcohol has a proven record of failure. Almost all first-world countries either make private ownership of firearms illegal or put severe restrictions on it. Murder rates in every other first world country are much lower than in the United States, without exception. > > Banning alcohol, on the other hand, makes drinking problems and associated crimes much worse. The USA did so with the 18th amendment in 1919 and, after observing the results, overturned it with the 21st amendment fourteen years later. Are you suggesting it has nothing to do with principle but just enforcement? That alcohol is in fact bad, it’s just hard to eradicate? Do you ever drink? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/39 "2013-03-08T16:07:49Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I’ll be happy to tell you as soon as you answer my question (that you have ignored several times) regarding if you think AR15s or any other guns legal today should be made illegal. Fair? You seem to be referring to a discussion in another thread, and frankly, no, this is not reasonable. We’ve had plenty of debates about AR15s. If you want to debate the more general issue you’ve identified in this thread, do so. If not, this thread is pointless and may get closed. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383/40 "2013-03-08T16:08:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t think we should ban either. So you are against the ban on unrestricted private ownership of full-automatic weapons? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-some-of-same-people-think-alcohol-is-good-think-guns-are-bad/652383.md?page=3)