# Why do the world's Joe the Plumbers think tax cuts for the rich benefit them? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334 "2009-08-22T18:39:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/161 "2009-08-24T02:46:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I think there are other people who are for tax cuts because its in the platform of the party they have chosen for other reasons. It takes more to deviate from your party on any one issue than it does to go along with that issue. When you’re a Democrat around Democrats, you’re assumed to have beliefs X, Y, and Z. When you’re a Republican around Republicans, you’re assumed to have beliefs A, B, and C. If you have beliefs that are outside the mainstream of your party, they might drift into the mainstream through the sheer amount of repetition or expectation you encounter. > > So, if you’re a Republican for social issues, you could end up defending Republicans and Republicanism, and eventually embrace what you’re defending. It’s psychologically easier. This is a big, big one in explaining each political party’s approach and why politicians can get away with voting against their constituent’s economic interests. This happens on both sides of the aisles, except that by-and-large the left is populated by voting blocks that exist primarily for constituent’s economic interests (labor unions) at least in terms of wage economics. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/162 "2009-08-24T02:49:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Just because you want something doesn’t mean you get it. > > [Actually it’s been increasing except for the past couple years.](http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/Federal-Government-Revenues-Have-More-Than-Tripled-Since-1965.aspx) Since there has been less income to tax most likely Historically tax revenues double every decade. Look at the actual numbers over the last decade. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/163 "2009-08-24T03:05:07Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, **Starving Artist** has made an issue of the uncouth and impolite nature of those he politically opposes. Factually speaking, this isn’t quite true. I have made an issue of the uncouth and impolite society that people I oppose politically have created (and as only a small part of the overall damage that liberalism has done to American society, but seeing as how people around here find it easier to laugh off concerns about politeness and crassness than they do the more serious issues I’ve raised, it gets the most attention), but the damage is done and we’ve reached the point where society as a whole – conservative, liberal, non-aligned, apathetic, uncaring, young, whatever, is impolite and uncouth. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I make an extra effort to be succinct and non-acrimonious when I directly disagree with him. Thanks. I appreciate that. I hope that I respond in the same way, though sometimes… > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > An enoucnter with a polite liberal can either be enlightening or drive him nuts. Liberalism pretty much drives me nuts no matter what. 😃 Still, I do try to respond in a polite manner when people are polite to me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/164 "2009-08-24T03:12:49Z")
“Unlike you guys, I actually think about stuff. Hey, no offense meant, of course, just being honest…” ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/165 "2009-08-24T03:17:57Z")
QUOTE=Starving Artist;11476727] Liberalism pretty much drives me nuts no matter what. 😃 Still, I do try to respond in a polite manner when people are polite to me. [/QUOTE] Then sit down and shut up and do what the King and owners of the Incorporate States of the Americas tell you. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/166 "2009-08-24T03:20:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That presumes they absolutely, positively, must spend the whole $1MM on contractors. Even the modestly wealthy can do quite a lot with $800,000. They don’t have to scrimp just because the mean old Democrats took away their Bush Bucks. God you are so fucking literal. The money doesn’t need to spent on contractors but it’s spent on SOMETHING. Boat Captains, Sails, ATVs, Surplus WWI Tanks for wargames at their ranch in Arizona, maintenance for their Alfa Romeo, Repainting the living room because the orange accent wall doesn’t really work with the creme color, poolboys, gardeners, plumbers. The bottom line is that whatever the amount of their disposable income in any given year gets spent on people who provide services and provides jobs. That’s true of any economic transaction, any time you buy ANYTHING someone is getting paid to provide you a good or a service, that’s true whether it’s your Happy Meal at McDonald’s or a blow job from a hooker you met in Paris that they decided to import on the spur of the moment. When rich people spend their money it’s on services that people provide, sometimes some of that money goes to other rich people and sometimes it goes to poor people. **Starving Artist** You ‘earn’ 10,000, you don't 'earn' 1,000,000 you game it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/167 "2009-08-24T03:50:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And they don’t “withdraw” it, they EARN it! Either by dint of hard work, exceptional talent or coming up with something that a lot of people want to pay for. That ain’t easy and not very many people can do it. The rich don’t TAKE money, it gets PAID to them…by people who want what they offer! > > The notion that rich people somehow benefit unfairly or disproportionately by virtue of their success compared with the rest of society is nothing more than a rationalization by which those with a socialistic bent can justify taking money from those who earn it in order that it may be spent on them. I made roughly $10K working last month, and roughly $10K on my investments. I didn’t earn the latter $10K by any of your criteria - I didn’t even earn it by being smart, unless being smart means nodded when my investment advisor explains why I should buy that fund. A CEO who got a $10 million raise because his buddies were on a compensation committee, despite the fact that the company lost money and the stock went down didn’t earn it either. Some do. Do you want to tax the bozos more than the ones who did something? The tax system should cause more or less equal pain to everyone - which means more from the rich. That seems fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/168 "2009-08-24T04:14:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I made roughly $10K working last month, and roughly $10K on my investments. I didn’t earn the latter $10K by any of your criteria… I never meant to cover every criteria with which people can earn money. You earned the second 10K by putting your money to work for you. This takes (or should) a certain amount of intelligence and willingness to take a risk. You still earned the money, even if not by the sweat of your brow. > [@Voyager](#): > > A CEO who got a $10 million raise because his buddies were on a compensation committee, despite the fact that the company lost money and the stock went down didn’t earn it either. You don’t know that. Perhaps without his efforts, the company would have been in much worse shape and lost many more millions than it did. > [@Voyager](#): > > Some do. Do you want to tax the bozos more than the ones who did something? Same answer. Besides, income is income. It’s none of your business how it was earned and it’s not for you to decide which type of earning is legitmate. As long as it’s legal, you should have no say in anything having to do with how it was earned or how it should be taxed. > [@Voyager](#): > > The tax system should cause more or less equal pain to everyone - which means more from the rich. That seems fair to me. A flat tax _is_ more from the rich. 10% of a 5,000,000 income is 100 times more money than 10% of a $50,000 income. Attempting to ascertain equal pain is a subjective call and is an attempt to create fairness artificially. It can’t be done, and it isn’t done. It’s just an excuse to rape the rich, made possible by the fact that most people aren’t rich but still have just as much voting power. Ask 98 out of 100 people if you should disproportionately tax the two remaining rich people and use the money to benefit them, and they’re going to vote, _“Hell, yeah!”_ (or at least most of them will; there will be principles holdouts such as myself but we will be in the minority) , and the measure will pass by whatever margin defines the _“Hell, yeah!”_ group. That still doesn’t make it right and it still doesn’t make it fair…unless by “fair” you mean the self-serving people who will benefit from it have decided it is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/169 "2009-08-24T04:57:27Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …made possible by the fact that most people aren’t rich but still have just as much voting power… Perhaps, someday, something will be done about this dreadful state of affairs. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/170 "2009-08-24T05:42:40Z")
You have to admit, when you have a situation where 2% of the population is rich and 98% isn’t, it’s easy to garner support for the kind of thinking that says, “Um, yeah…tax the shit out of those fuckers, it’s only right.” Well, it ain’t right. It’s taxation by mob rule. But of course, people don’t like to admit that, so they cook up reasons to mask their avarice, like “disproportionate societal benefit” and “equal pain” to try to mask what is in reality nothing more than a naked money grab made possible by the fact that the grabbers have the most votes. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/171 "2009-08-24T05:58:08Z")
Let me ask you this, **Starving Artist** , do you think there has been any fundamental change in enviornment or human nature as they apply to economics within the last 100 years or so? To put it another way, is there anything, excluding government policy, that would account for any large-scale shifts in economic performance or behavior? If yes, what are the changes and what has their effect been? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/172 "2009-08-24T06:09:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Well, it ain’t right. It’s taxation by mob rule. … A mob that calmly assembles at polling stations to commit acts of raw tyranny. Heavens! I clutch my pearls, I swoon… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/173 "2009-08-24T07:03:49Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > In a capitalistic system, as long as the money was not illegally made or acquired, then the money is rightfully theirs. Who are you to say otherwise? We’re the people who ultimately own the government that backs their script, we’re the voters, we’re the society who gives that script meaning. Without us the script would be nothing but green cotton and wood blended paper. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/174 "2009-08-24T07:28:11Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Let me ask you this, **Starving Artist** , do you think there has been any fundamental change in enviornment or human nature as they apply to economics within the last 100 years or so? To put it another way, is there anything, excluding government policy, that would account for any large-scale shifts in economic performance or behavior? > > If yes, what are the changes and what has their effect been? Sorry, I just got back and am about to call it a night so maybe the late hour is affecting my powers of perception, but I don’t quite understand the question. If you’d like to try to rephrase it and be a little more specific I’ll try to get back to it tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/175 "2009-08-24T10:25:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they’ve been allowed to hog most of the nation’s wealth to themselves, and to reshape society until America is basically one gigantic machine to benefit them. Because if we don’t society will collapse, due to the progressively impoverished general population having less and less ability to carry the wealthy on their backs. So, in essence, to punish the wealthy. That’s what I thought. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It would ruin the country and create general chaos. Mass starvation, economic collapse and a nationwide collapse of services would be the result. Lowering spending will do this? LOL! And people think the right-wingers are crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/176 "2009-08-24T12:11:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sorry, I just got back and am about to call it a night so maybe the late hour is affecting my powers of perception, but I don’t quite understand the question. If you’d like to try to rephrase it and be a little more specific I’ll try to get back to it tomorrow. Well, I’ll tell you the point I’m getting at, then maybe the question will make more sense. You said there is no pool of wealth that we all draw from. However, it is possible to look at the past and current state of the economy as a pool; how much have we cumulatively earned, and how is that income distributed. The top 5% of earners bring in more than 5% of the income, obviously, but the recent trend is that income disparity is increasing. Compared to each other, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. I’m not saying this is a bad thing. (At least, not yet.) My question is, to what do you attribute this change. Is it an anomaly, is it due to some factors outside our control, or is it due to policies enacted by the government? Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/177 "2009-08-24T12:38:06Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I made roughly $10K working last month, and roughly $10K on my investments. I didn’t earn the latter $10K by any of your criteria - I didn’t even earn it by being smart, unless being smart means nodded when my investment advisor explains why I should buy that fund. So can we take it away from you and give it to crack heads and high school dropouts? > [@Voyager](#): > > A CEO who got a $10 million raise because his buddies were on a compensation committee, despite the fact that the company lost money and the stock went down didn’t earn it either. This may come as a surprise, but some, if not most, CEOs actually do run their companies > [@elucidator](#): > > Originally Posted by Starving Artist > …Well, it ain’t right. It’s taxation by mob rule. … > > A mob that calmly assembles at polling stations to commit acts of raw tyranny. Heavens! I clutch my pearls, I swoon… It makes it better that the mob uses voting booths instead of torches? > [@The Tao's Revenge](#): > > We’re the people who ultimately own the government that backs their script, we’re the voters, we’re the society who gives that script meaning. Without us the script would be nothing but green cotton and wood blended paper. That isn’t really how the monetary system, or the economy works. Unfortunately most people seem to think it is. The government doesn’t “back their script”. At least not like you think. The government backs the dollar in the sense that it supports its use as legal tender and enforces contracts. The dollar retains its value so long as people trust that it actually represents a promise to deliver a dollar’s worth of labor or services. Money represents wealth - assets that produce value. It is not wealth in and of itself. If you simply decide to take money away from those who have created wealth (or take wealth away from the people with lots of money), you break the link between the dollar and the value it represents, that promise of value is voided and your money is worthless. Just ask the people of Zimbabwe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/178 "2009-08-24T13:15:50Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > Because they’ve been allowed to hog most of the nation’s wealth to themselves, and to reshape society until America is basically one gigantic machine to benefit them. Because if we don’t society will collapse, due to the progressively impoverished general population having less and less ability to carry the wealthy on their backs. So, in essence, to punish the wealthy. That’s what I thought. [/quote] Don’t distort what I said. Making them pay their fair share, to keep the country from collapsing is not “punishing” them. > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > It would ruin the country and create general chaos. Mass starvation, economic collapse and a nationwide collapse of services would be the result. Lowering spending will do this? LOL! And people think the right-wingers are crazy. [/QUOTE] Lowering spending enough to try to pay back our debts would do that; the government would be gutted, which would result in chaos. Which would also mean that it wouldn’t even succeed in paying off the debts. The fact is the Right has spent this country into a pit, screwed up the economy and allowed the wealthy to hog most of the nation’s assets. The damage is huge enough that the non-wealthy **cannot** pay to fix it; they don’t have the money anymore, the rich do. ---
**Author:** ![legalsnugs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@legalsnugs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legalsnugs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/179 "2009-08-24T13:20:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > …Do you think I became a conservative just by pulling a number out of a hat? I am not a conservative by whim, you know. There are concrete reasons why I believe in conservative politics and they are decades old and founded in common sense and values of fairness, individualism and freedom from government control. Why should I abandon those values based on arguments that caused me to become conservative in the first place? Wasn’t the top tax rate on income over $400,000 91 percent in 1957? Yes, that’s true. And didn’t Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Republican president, refuse to push tax rate cuts for the high-income set? Um, yes. What’s our current top marginal rate? 35 percent. If you’re so hot to return to the values of 1957, how can you possibly justify your defense of lower taxes for the richest? What good conservative values are those again? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334/180 "2009-08-24T13:26:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It makes it better that the mob uses voting booths instead of torches? Perhaps you know of a better system of government than representative democracy? Allowing any interest group except the majority to determine the policies of the country is true tyranny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-the-worlds-joe-the-plumbers-think-tax-cuts-for-the-rich-benefit-them/507334.md?page=10)