# Why do these racist comments warrant a warning while others don't? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325 "2012-11-08T03:32:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/61 "2012-11-10T21:43:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Because a 19th century eugenicist is a far cry from someone who’s read the Bell Curve and doesn’t reflexively dismiss it. No they aren’t. It’s the same ignorant ideas dressed up in sheep’s clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/62 "2012-11-10T22:43:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No they aren’t. > > It’s the same ignorant ideas dressed up in sheep’s clothing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/63 "2012-11-10T23:31:45Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And while I certainly can see a part of the phrase “living in the bush” meaning something like “not fully adapted to modern urban society”, there is a definite element there that steps beyond that statement. It carries an air of “jungle bunny”. Well it may whereever you live. It doesn’t where I live. I’d be interested in a simply statement from MrDibble or some other South African as to what connotation the idiom carries there. I think there may be a whole lot of cultural baggage transfer going on here. There may not be also, but I’d like a straight answer from someone who knows. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/64 "2012-11-11T01:36:33Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Well it may whereever you live. It doesn’t where I live. I’d be interested in a simply statement from MrDibble or some other South African as to what connotation the idiom carries there. I think there may be a whole lot of cultural baggage transfer going on here. There may not be also, but I’d like a straight answer from someone who knows. If you genuinely don’t understand why black people would be offended by being told they have one foot in the jungle then it would be utterly pointless to explain unless you come from a dramatically different environment then most people on this site. What country are you from? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/65 "2012-11-11T02:45:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If you genuinely don’t understand why black people would be offended by being told they have one foot in the jungle then it would be utterly pointless to explain unless you come from a dramatically different environment then most people on this site. > > What country are you from? You seem to genuinely not understand that you can’t divine someone’s meaning simply from the words they’ve spoken. Where they are from, and what those words mean there, are important. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/66 "2012-11-11T04:00:18Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Well it may whereever you live. It doesn’t where I live. I’d be interested in a simply statement from MrDibble or some other South African as to what connotation the idiom carries there. I think there may be a whole lot of cultural baggage transfer going on here. There may not be also, but I’d like a straight answer from someone who knows. How about > [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m assuming no such thing. I’m reading this one actual statement exactly as it’s bloody well written. > Don’t you get it? It is _precisely_ what was said that made it racist. And they are **not** saying the same thing: what’s the link between “no experience with democracy” and “living in the bush”? None. > > Your gloss on it is just disingenuous excuse-making for racism. The person you’re defending was painting the vast majority of South Africans as one step removed from literal uncivilized hunter-gatherers, a characterisation that has absolutely zero connection with any reality now, or even in the pre-colonial past. Underlining added. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/67 "2012-11-11T04:50:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You seem to genuinely not understand that you can’t divine someone’s meaning simply from the words they’ve spoken. Where they are from, and what those words mean there, are important. I wasn’t addressing you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/68 "2012-11-11T06:53:56Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > And while I certainly can see a part of the phrase “living in the bush” meaning something like “not fully adapted to modern urban society”, there is a definite element there that steps beyond that statement. **It carries an air of “jungle bunny”**. Exactly. > [@Shodan](#): > > No, you are assuming, which is why you keep changing what was said to make it look worse. Oh please. I’ve been paraphrasing what was said, the original is plenty bad enough and I’ve repeated it exactly too. If I was steadily worsening it why would I still use the same original phrasing later in the thread? > [@](#): > > One is politically correct, and the other is not. They express the same opinion. No. They don’t. If they did, you could show the link between the two, or the relevance of “the bush” to the South African majority populace. > [@](#): > > Repetition isn’t proof. I don’t need to _prove_ anything to you. You’ve already made your mind up for whatever partisan reason. Nor do I need to prove anything to anyone else - dude already got his warning. What I’m doing is calling your so-called reasoning for defending racism exactly what it is - disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/69 "2012-11-11T07:01:16Z")
No-one’s defending racism. What we’re doing is attacking the somewhat ridiculous process of minutely parsing every sentence in the hope of find some oblique reference that could _possibly_ be considered racist, if one assumes the very worst about the writer, then getting butthurt about it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/70 "2012-11-11T07:30:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No-one’s defending racism. When you defend racist statements, you defend racism. > [@](#): > > What we’re doing is attacking the somewhat ridiculous process of minutely parsing every sentence in the hope of find some oblique reference that could _possibly_ be considered racist, if one assumes the very worst about the writer, then getting butthurt about it. No. In fact, it take assuming absolutely the _best_ of the writer from the outset to explain why “one foot in the bush” is _not_ racism _in this context_. And the “the country was a safe and a clean one to live in” line was where **Delon** had _already_ lost that assumption. No “minute parsing” necessary. Dude had already outed himself as a racist at that point. “One leg in the bush” was just the overt “let’s see how far I can take this” bit. If I saw just that phrase in a post by some other regular poster, I’d assume he had no idea what he was saying and would correct him, but wouldn’t assume he was a racist because of it. But note that **Delon** only had two posts, both in that thread. Survey says “drive-by racist” but go ahead, defend it all you want to. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/71 "2012-11-11T08:30:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But note that **Delon** only had two posts, both in that thread. Survey says “drive-by racist” but go ahead, defend it all you want to. You forgot to mention that the fellow stopped by and registered just to resurrect a one and a half year old zombie thread with his unsubstantiated views. Hasn’t been around since. To be scrupulously fair though, if you take the title of his post “The problem with South Africa” and make an anagram you get, “Twirl Shrimp: Toot A Cab Fee, Huh,” which isn’t racist at all! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/72 "2012-11-11T10:20:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > When you defend racist statements, you defend racism. Maybe. But when one defends another’s right to make a statement that is not explicitly racist, and indeed takes some twisting to make it racist, one isn’t defending racism at all. > [@](#): > > No. In fact, it take assuming absolutely the _best_ of the writer from the outset to explain why “one foot in the bush” is _not_ racism _in this context_. And the “the country was a safe and a clean one to live in” line was where **Delon** had _already_ lost that assumption. No “minute parsing” necessary. Dude had already outed himself as a racist at that point. “One leg in the bush” was just the overt “let’s see how far I can take this” bit. In other words, your default assumption is to assume racism. I’ve never understood why people do this, or why they look for racism anywhere they can find it. I’m going to add something important here, and it echoes what **Rand Rover** said about calling people “scientific racists” earlier. Stating that a \*correlation \*between race, however defined, and a trait (whether positive or negative), exists, is not racist. It is a simple true-or-false statement. Stating that _causation_ exists is racist. Saying people are less intelligent, or worse at governing, or better at basketball, _because_ they are black, is racist. Saying that they are those things _and_ they are black is not. It is the difference between an observation and a judgement. **Delon’s** post was the former, it was not racist, and it shouldn’t have been moderated. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/73 "2012-11-11T13:28:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Maybe. But when one defends another’s right to make a statement that is not explicitly racist, and indeed takes some twisting to make it racist, one isn’t defending racism at all. Good thing that’s not the kind of statement we’re talking about, then. > [@](#): > > In other words, your default assumption is to assume racism. Nope. There’s a difference between a default assumption of racism and a reading of racism for just cause. _By the time I got to the phrase in question_ I already had reason not to take a neutral stance. That’s what I mean by “assuming the best … in this context” - **Delon** _already_ had a negative impression before I got that far in his post. His earlier Apartheid apologia had already coloured his entire post (as it were :)) Are you _seriously_ arguing that you think this drive-by posting was just an innocent comment with no racial overtone whatsoever? Seriously?😕 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/74 "2012-11-11T13:33:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Stating that _causation_ exists is racist. Saying people are less intelligent, or worse at governing, or better at basketball, _because_ they are black, is racist. Saying that they are those things _and_ they are black is not. The scientific racists _never_ just point out correlation - hell, we non-racists in those debates happily acknowledge the correlation. We just point out the likely other causative factors > [@](#): > > It is the difference between an observation and a judgement. **Delon’s** post was the former, it was not racist, and it shouldn’t have been moderated. Oh, for fuck’s sake - this is bullshit. **Delon** wasn _not_ moderated for saying South African Blacks are incapable of governing themselves - lots of other posters have made similar ignorant statements on this board and _not_ been moderated. He was moderated specifically for the “one leg in the bush” comment. It’s there in the OP’s link and everything. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/75 "2012-11-11T14:37:53Z")
In [my response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15666151&postcount=389) to **Delon** I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was being unwittingly ignorant of SA history/politics; however, I was not assuming that his comment/post wasn’t racist. In retrospect I can see how it **need not** be taken as a racist, but I can’t see why I (or anyone else) **must not, cannot, or should not** take it as racist. Quick lesson to all the “racial comments about people is not racist _per se_” people: **You** are not owed “the benefit of the doubt” from anyone. Especially not from a non-white South African who’s within living memory of Apartheid. Suck it the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/76 "2012-11-11T15:11:04Z")
I had started straight out assuming **Delon** was South African, actually, given that he/she said “this country”. That’s kind of why the bush comment was worse than coming from, say, a Norwegian. It’s a very South African idiom. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/77 "2012-11-11T17:38:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I wasn’t addressing you. I know. I just saw some more ignorance from you, so I fought it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/78 "2012-11-12T07:16:51Z")
**Ibn** ’s point to **Prin** seemed to be (he can correct me if I’m wrong) that there\* isn’t\* any place he knows of (that Dopers come from) where saying the equivalent of “you all just stepped out of the bush” to a large, diverse group of Black people isn’t offensive. He was asking where **Prin** is from, that that bare-bones reading of that text is _not_ offensive. I don’t think the ignorance is coming from _him_. But you keep fighting, little trooper. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/79 "2012-11-12T07:35:31Z")
I’m good with \*\*MrDibble’s \*\*explanation of what the idiom means in SA, as re-iterated to me by **Irishman**. Sorry I missed it the first time round. **Ibn** I’m from Australia. As I said upthread, here the expression would just mean “hick” or “unsophisticated”. It wouldn’t mean the targetted people were racially substandard. And besides which, I’m feeling better about \*\*MrDibble \*\*since checking the cricket score 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325/80 "2012-11-12T09:24:02Z")
Aaah crap, double century! Stupid Clarke… …brilliant knock, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-these-racist-comments-warrant-a-warning-while-others-dont/640325.md?page=3)