# Why do they hate us so much? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864 "2002-06-19T14:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/41 "2002-06-19T21:03:37Z")
> [@](#): > > (@@# ~~##~~ €). Funny, I didn’t find that in my Spanish-English dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/42 "2002-06-19T21:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > (Try to remain calm Francisco, don’t loose your temper) > > Sense of proportion? 1198 persons are dissapeared in Chile (thousands more were murdered with out a fair trial or were tortured, imprisioned, raped, etc). Right, and that’s totally deplorable. However, Argentina had 20,000 to 30,000 Desaparecidos – twoenty times as many as Chile. China’s [Cultural Revolution](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/china/peopleevents/pande03.html), “… led to the deaths of more than two million people, including many scholars, intellectuals and artists.” Under [Pol Pot](http://www.cnn.com/resources/newsmakers/world/asia/pol.html) in Cambodia, “In the forced mass exodus, the government caused the deaths of an estimated 2 million Cambodians through imprisonment, torture, overwork, starvation and execution.” Thousands have been killed, tortured or imprisoned by Castro, and millions have fled Cuba. > [@](#): > > Because there a lot of persons in the world that keep a “sense of proportion” in human rights abuses, today, almost 60 years after Nuremberg there are barbaric acts going in places like: China, Cuba, Israel, Palestina, etc, etc. 😕 What does that mean? > [@](#): > > What you fail to notice December is that your goverment is a direct responsable of the death of everyone of them. 😕 Huh? > [@](#): > > You asked me to provide a cite for my allegations that in Chile the army is a power over the state,… Here’s a [cite](http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/HISTOR~5.htm). > [@](#): > > In December 1989, in Chile’s first presidential election in 19 years, voters chose the Christian Democratic candidate, Patricio Aylwin. Also in 1990, Pinochet announced his intention to remain the commander-in-chief of the armed forces until 1997. Aylwin initiated modest economic reforms and appointed a commission to investigate human rights violations by the Pinochet regime. > > In the 1993 elections Christian Democrat Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle, son of Eduardo Frei Montalva, was elected president. In order to continue the country’s movement toward civilian-controlled politics, President Frei proposed eliminating the nine senatorial positions filled by army appointees and asked for the institution of proportional representation in parliamentary elections. > > In November 1993 the former head of Chile’s secret police during the Pinochet government and his deputy were sentenced to seven- and six-year sentences for masterminding the 1976 Letelier assassination. The case, which was widely seen as a test of Chile’s fragile democracy, was appealed and upheld by the Chilean Supreme Court in May 1995. While Chilean military leaders agreed to abide by the court’s decision, the former police commander vowed to resist arrest and called on Pinochet to intervene. Pinochet denounced the decision and challenged the authority of the Supreme Court to sentence the men. After a tense standoff between the military and the civilian government, the two convicted men were arrested in June 1995. It sounds like Chilean democracy is getting better and better. However, I will admit that 19 years without an election was an awfully long time. > [@](#): > > This is getting long but you mentioned the “IMF” help to Argentina, you are wrong the IMF has not lent us money, they gave money to Chile, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay in an effort to contain the argentinian crisis (they are faling miserabely). I hope they do lend us money in a near future because the crisis is devastating. [I had mentioned the World Bank as well as the IMF](http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/news/pressrelease.nsf/673fa6c5a2d50a67852565e200692a79/7d90719d8dee830585256ab600674aeb?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, August 28, 2001–The World Bank today approved a $400 million project to support Argentina’s social programs, health insurance regulation, tax administration and improvements to the provinces’ fiscal management… > \ > This loan is part of the Bank’s $2.4 billion program for Argentina for 2001 and 2002 which, in turn, is part of a larger initiative by the international community, involving the International Monetary Fund and the Inter-American Development Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/43 "2002-06-19T22:08:37Z")
**bizzwire:** \*puh-leeze…do you really think that the September 11 attacks were a response for what we did to Somoza and Lumumba? \* Oh, you mean **that** “they”. No, AFAICT, the architects of the 9/11 attacks, if they had any rational motive at all (and I doubt that rationality is a big part of their worldview) were pissed off specifically about (non-Muslim) American troops remaining in Saudi Arabia, which they consider a defilement of Muslim holy space, as well as a crutch for a corrupt and impure regime. The OP wasn’t specific as to which “they” it was talking about, so the discussion has ranged over various grievances that a number of different groups have against the US. Of course, as others have acknowledged already, not all of these grievances are going to be important to every group. And as **tomndebb** has well said, the existence of legitimate grievances doesn’t mean that people can’t also hate the US for stupid, trivial, or downright irrational reasons. There’s nothing we can do about the latter group of nutbags, except (inshallah) catch them before they hurt us or punish them afterwards. But I strongly suspect that the more we do to alleviate the legitimate grievances, the more difficult it will be for the nutbags to persuade people to hate us for stupid reasons. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/44 "2002-06-19T23:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*odd that \*\*december \*\* talks here about a ‘sense of proportion’ and points out that condeming actions in one area doesn’t condone bad behavior in others, but he didn’t seem to want to allow Amnesty International to behave that way. \*\* **wring** , perhaps this list of [70 suicide bombing attacks](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0619IsraelAttacksGlance19-ON.html) against Israel in the last 21 months will help show why a sense of proportion suggests not insisting on the release of someone who will organize even more bombings. YMMV P.S. Today’s was the 71[sup]st[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/45 "2002-06-20T00:00:07Z")
**december** point remains - “just 'cause you point out one bad thing doesn’t mean you don’t abhor other bad thing” except, of course, when you’re talking about AI, since unless they focus only on what you consider the most heinous example, you assume that they’ve got no problem w/other bad acts. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/46 "2002-06-20T00:06:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***december** point remains - “just 'cause you point out one bad thing doesn’t mean you don’t abhor other bad thing” except, of course, when you’re talking about AI, since unless they focus only on what you consider the most heinous example, you assume that they’ve got no problem w/other bad acts. \*\* Well I don’t just assume it. I know it. Each of those 71 bombings was a lot more horrible to human beings than is detaining this murderer without proper procedure. So, AI might have denounced each and every one of these attacks, to a greater degree than the procedural lapse on Sa’adat. But, they haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/47 "2002-06-20T00:20:51Z")
you don’t see the irony in your position? you wish here that the US be given credit for not being the worst MoFo on the planet, and for others to recognize that by pointing out certain wrongful acts you’re not in any way implying that other wrongful acts aren’t also, well, wrong. and yet, if AI attempts to point out wrongful acts in one case, you scream from the rafters “BUT wait! it’s not as bad as these others here ! why aren’t you pointing the finger there!?!??!” Pity. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/48 "2002-06-20T01:09:23Z")
Maybe Estilicon can offer some more information about the Argentinian dictatorship if he wants, but I remember reading essays about it (and seeing different interviews about people that went thru it). Estilicon: Wasn’t the Military Junta a Right-wing group? I thought it was if not explicitly supported, at least ignored by US… In one of the interviews I saw and heard, there was a woman who was part of _Madres de la Plaza Cinco de mayo_… She was mad at the United States, and I understood why. **december** , the US exclaims to the rest of the world that it is the defender of democracy, the helper, the good guy… If you have grown believing that, how would you feel if you see the democracy of your country torn to pieces, your loved ones disappear, and US doing nothing and ignoring the place because “Hey, they are not communists/socialists”? I know I would be pissed, to put it mildly… ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/49 "2002-06-20T01:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* Funny, I didn’t find that in my Spanish-English dictionary. \*\* But I did find it in mine! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/50 "2002-06-20T01:34:08Z")
As for the overthrow of the Guatemalan government-that was because Arbenz did not kiss the ass of the United Fruit Company. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/51 "2002-06-20T01:38:36Z")
It was supported by the U.S.A, in fact they shared (with the junta) their hatred for comunism. You have to remember that the junta was the last (and worst military regime). To be fair Carter did something, but things changed again with reagan (untill Malvina’s (Falkland’s) war). However the number given by december 30000 disappeared is not correct, you see the Argentinian goverment offered compensation to the relatices and only 9000 asked for it. As I don’t have December’s “sense of proportion” I am shamed with that my state killed “only” 9000. Tommdebb I can give you the translation but in the pit I am sure one of the moderators speaks spanish 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/52 "2002-06-20T01:46:29Z")
**december** -you know, I could point out that technically, Pinochet killed more than the suicide bombers… Where’s your proportion now? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/53 "2002-06-20T01:46:30Z")
Karl Grenze, a small correction (if you don`t mind) it is called Plaza de Mayo, nothing happened in the 5 of may of 1810. If I am not wrong and American ship arrived on the 6 with news that the Sevilla Junta had fallen, Viceroy Baltasar Hidalgo de Cisneros arrested the crew but as the idiom says “bad news travel fast”, on the 22 an open congress was demanded, it was granted with Cisneros as the president, finally on the 25 the first autonomos goverment was created, presided by the bolivian Cornelio Saavedra. That is why we celebrate every 25, but still all of “La semana de mayo” is important. Our independence is on 9 of July (1816) when in my city (San Miguel de Tucumán) independence was declared. Hope I didn’t bore you. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/54 "2002-06-20T01:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > Envy of our success. Yes, many people envy you just because you are successful, other people who you may think are just envy are really pissed off because the US companies’ success damaged the local economy and/or the government. The United Fruit Company depended on a US friendly government, not always the one democratically elected. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > I certainly agree that US foreign policy has not been perfect. However, to show that these are the reasons why they hate us, one would need to demonstrate that these incidents are worse than what other countries have done, which I do not believe is the case. Well, I’m a believer that every country that has had more power or influence than others has done bad things to those others. Of course, you are asking why the other people hate the US, not why the other people hate France, Spain, Italy, or other old imperial powers, that’s why only bad things that the US has done are mentioned here…but I’ll gladly dug up some desputable things those other empires had done in the past, if you want. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > Furthermore, the US (along with many other countries) has done much bigger things that have improved human rights, such as defeating fascism, peacefully winning the cold war, the Marshall Plan, helping Germany and Japan become prosperous democracies, and founding the United Nations. This is what I was referring to in my previous post. The US claims to be the good guy, but to the people that suffered thru some of US mistakes, that is just a big fat lie and hipocrisy. For you the US won the cold war peacefully…for the Chilean or Nicaraguan or Grenadian that had to see US intervene in his/her country, it was not peaceful. And don’t forget the US is one of UN’s biggest debtors…what good is it founding something when you don’t support it? (And no, I don’t agree with everything the UN does, either) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > I know little about the government that was overthrown. Was it any good? Good to whom? To the US? Apparently not, since it was ousted! To the people? Only they had the power to decide, and since they were not the ones who ousted the government, one could say they were ok with it. **december** , one of the things about democracy is that if the people who vote for the government can also oust them. They can revolt in the streets, go to court, stage parades, etc. Even if they don’t get what they wanted (deposition of the government), at least they made the government clear on what their ideas and proposals were. Look what happened in the Philippines…look what happened in Indonesia with Suharto… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > At the moment, Chile is a democracy with one of the strongest economies in Latin America. Look how much worse things are in neighboring Argentina. 1. Which related to the general population, is to say not much. 2. Argentina also went thru right-wing and military juntas, endorsed or at least tolerated by the US. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by december_ > I am struck that in **tomndebb’s** list, the US is blamed for tolerating right-wing dictatorships, but not blamed for tolerating left-wing dictatorships. Please find me one, because at least in Latin America, I cannot think of one place were this is/was the case! ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/55 "2002-06-20T07:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > **tomndebb** , while your information is probably historically accurate (if somewhat one sided), I would say that much of it is academic nonsense. The average Middle Easterner, by and large, cares about as much about what the US did in South America 50 years ago as I do about what the Iranis and Iraqis did to each other in the 70s and 80s. Which is to say, not at all. I’m going to assume you didn’t actually mean to imply “they’re all just a bunch of barbarians who are used to killing each other” sentiment that your statement above conveyed to me. But regardless, you couldn’t be any more incorrect about this. To this very day, the mere mention of the war brings back emotions of tremendous sadness and loss to those who lost someone; Kind of similar to the emotions and reactions to Viet Nam. And just exactly what did they do to each other in the 70’s? > [@](#): > > I’ll bet that people all over the world are basically the same. They have little interest in world politics until a plane piloted by Islamic terrorists crashes into their city or American Black Hawks are patrolling their streets. In other words, people tend to get angry at stuff that screws up their day RIGHT NOW, not 40 years ago. You’ll “bet” that people all over the world are basically the same? Just for those of us who don’t know you personally, how much of the rest of the world’s population have you lived amongst? Though I tend to agree with the sentiment that people all over the world generally want to live their lives in one way or another, I hardly think they have the memory of a labotomized gnat like you seem to be suggesting they do. You’re American, correct? How many of your fellow citizens have forgotten the first World Trade Center attack? How many of your citizens have forgotten the Oklahoma city bombing. Judging by the popularity of the film “Pearl Harbor” I’d “bet” you Americans seem to remember events that happened long before some of you were even born. At least have the decency to admit there might be others in “those” places which can do so as well. You stated that “they” may not care about events from 40 years ago. Possibly true… if they were random acts of violence or some other small foot note in history. Toppling governments and imposing puppet regimes do not blow away with yesterday’s newspapers. Those events have very long lasting effects on the mass populace. > [@](#): > > Other than that, its hard to say why people hate the US without refering to a specific group. I know a lot of liberal types seem to hate the US now. I suspect they read about a particular event in History class and think its trendy to think of America as an evil empire. And of course, you couldn’t let one slip by without a jab at “dem dang lib’rls,” eh Roscoe? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/56 "2002-06-20T07:32:55Z")
Why is everyone avoiding the elephant in the room? Let’s just state it simply – as I’m reading it, in **december’s** book, terrorism, atrocities, and crimes against humanity are all okay as long as they’re done while implementing a government policy that benefits the United States. That’s why he tosses out such handwaving bullstuff like “the stuff done in Central America was peanuts compared to what happened in Asia.” Never mind that, for most of the folks in this thread, _all_ such acts should be condemned regardless of their size – hey, if Uncle Sam wants omelettes, **december** thinks it’s okay to break a few eggs… ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/57 "2002-06-20T11:31:49Z")
I think december is not making any sense at all, he seems to be ok with “small” violations of human rights but against terrorist attacks. I think he ought to listen to his wife and shut up ---
**Author:** ![jacksen9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@jacksen9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jacksen9)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/58 "2002-06-20T11:46:19Z")
Kimstu: But I strongly suspect that the more we do to alleviate the legitimate grievances, the more difficult it will be for the nutbags to persuade people to hate us for stupid reasons. Why wouldn’t policy makers come to the same position? How can the U.S. act in a way that allows nations and people to sort out their own difficulties? And while doing that remained engaged, and focused on the global issues that will foster successful economies, respect for human rights and democratic ideals. KarlGrenze: And don’t forget the US is one of UN’s biggest debtors…what good is it founding something when you don’t support it? (And no, I don’t agree with everything the UN does, either) What is the beef with the United Nations? Why did the U.S. not pay the debt to the UN? [http://www.unsystem.org/auditors/](http://www.unsystem.org/auditors/) [http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/core/un-us-02.htm](http://www.globalpolicy.org/finance/tables/core/un-us-02.htm) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/59 "2002-06-20T13:25:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KarlGrenze \* > **…other people who you may think are just envy are really pissed off because the US companies’ success damaged the local economy and/or the government.** This sounds like like the usual leftist, anti-American line;\* the US is always wrong\*. However, you may be sincere, **KarlGrenze**. Here’s your sincerity test: The US embargo of Cuba has served to protect Cuba from US companies damaging the local economy and/or the Cuban government. Are you in favor of this embargo? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864/60 "2002-06-20T13:31:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > _This sounds like like the usual leftist, anti-American line; the US is always wrong_. \*\* and this is not only rudely offensive claptrap, but I absolutely demand that you support this with something other than your usual suspects of right wing columnists. To call an entire group of us “anti American” because of a liberal stance is indefensible. I used to say that, whatever else you were, you were polite. I won’t anymore. :wally [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-hate-us-so-much/114864.md?page=4)