4 years of algebra? Has your son had to take classes over or are you exaggerating? Or could you have confused trig, calc, statistics, counting theory, and geometry with algebra?
I am a school teacher (not math), so I think I know a bit about the teenage human animal…
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Most teens don’t know what they will have for lunch today, let alone what their careers will be. That includes seniors in high school.
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Even if they do “know,” careers change.
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Even if they do “know,” they cannot possiby know everything about what such a career entails. In my career, I have required knowledge I never imagined I would need (first aide, psychology, socail work, diplomacy, carpentry, HTML, backing a twenty-foot trailer).
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Children must be exposed to a variety of influences. For example, I teach band. I routinely tell students to try band (as beginners). If they don’t like it, that’s okay. They have made an educated choice. But to reject music education without the attempt is a foolish choice. The same can be said of other disciplines.
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Algebra is a fact of modern life. Several of the posts on this message board deal with algebra. Two that come to mind are the “Gifting” scheme question and the one about telephone inside line maintenance. Both of these posts also require logical thinking.
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Algebra is required for personal finance. Management of personal funds is essential for adult life in the modern world. To not understand the math of money is to allow others (who do undertand) to take tremendous advantage of you. Again, the “Gifting” scheme comes to mind.
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Algebra (mathematics) is a discipline worth learning for its own intrinsic value. Period.
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You said that computer programmers weren’t as common twenty-one years ago and non-existent fifty-plus years ago. Balderdash! The computer was not suddenly handed down by God! Humans invented them. What humans, you ask? Why humans who used mathematics (including algebra). Inventors such as da Vinci, Bell, Edison, and others, predate computers, yet they certainly used algebra and other math disciplines. Who did you suppose invented computers? Someone was doing the math before they were invented! Sheesh.
Now, let’s take a look at the logic in your posts.
It is interesting that you consider the portrait on the $10 bill as “History”. That seems more like a $100 question on “Who Wants to be a Millionaire.” Isn’t history really more about what Hamilton did? Or is Alexander Hamilton a “dubious historical figure?” Also, Malcolm is spelled — well, Malcolm.
Maybe so, but algebra is the logic class he is required to take. Electives are, after all, elective.
At this point, I will choose not to get into the various grammatical errors in your posts. I will suggest that English composition might have deserved more attention from you when you were in school.
Now, speaking for my own use of algebra in my career. I am currently the band director in a small Central Texas town. Sometimes, I assist my students in their math studies. Since that only serves the system you rail against, I will agree that, in your world, that is not a valid use.
In other aspects of my job, however, I also use algebra. First, I must average grades. I also analyze standardized test data to determine how band influences student achievement. I am responsible for an inventory of equipment in excess of $250,000. I have to make purchases and determine which is the better buy. I also have to study whether it is better to repair an instrument or replace it. I have to justify my budget every year. This involves determining needs and projecting costs. I have to show how a purchase will affect students in the future. All of these require some level of algebra.
Of course, written music itself is a symbolic representation of mathematical concepts. Have you ever noticed that the names of notes are fractions? There’s the half note, quarter note, eighth note, sixteenth note, etc.
I remember in high school, taking geometry, I wondered how I would ever need that stuff. I was going to be a band director after all. Then, in my first year teaching, I had to paint the lines on a football field. It was then that I learned that Pythagoras really was my friend, after all.
Some learning does not have an immediate, practical application. Still, we must learn it in order to pass our culture on from one generation to the next. In your original post, you alluded to one of the events in an American life that binds us all together. We can all remember what it was like to suffer through high school algebra.
When people speak of the “dumbing down of America” and declining educational standards, they are speaking of you. In my career, I have met many parents such as you. They make me sad every time. It’s not really the parents that upset me. It’s what they have done to their children. When parents tell their children that a particular course simply must be endured, regardless of learning, they have done a terrible disservice. They have robbed them of the joy of learning.
Tell your son to hit the books. Quit whinning.
pkbites wrote:
I think “all sorts of professions,” is not accurate. For instance, you apparently are not in contact with folks in the sort of profession that uses algebra. That’s just off the top of my head. I’m going to guess that you also don’t know any professional wrestlers. That is another sort of profession that is in the set of “all sorts of professions.”
Sweet lord!
Your son is in his fourth year of algebra? What a disgraceful education system we have in this country! People wonder about why we import so many people from India and China for high-tech work. It’s because we Americans are idiots taught by a screwed up education system! May I suggest you talk to the people in his school about getting him something more challenging to prepare him for the real world? Four years of algebra is akin to four years counting; there’s just not that much to spread over such a long time.
You mention that the crowd you hang with includes “lawyers, ceo’s, investigators, teachers, and even dentists”. Granted, lawyers, investigators and dentists don’t need much math. And you can see my take on teachers in the paragraph above. But CEOs need a good finance background that goes way above algebra. Trust me, I’m a CEO and I have many CEO friends: A CEO who can’t keep money in the bank (budgeting), do forecasting, estimate valuations, and do planning will not be a CEO for long and each of those is math intensive activities.
And another thing: Perhaps you’ve heard of this amazing boom in the world recently where much hunks of the economy have shifted hands? Look at the new companies that own the new economy. Look at the new rich individuals in this country. It’s all about high-tech. And high-tech is math.
There are plenty of non-math vocations out there, and there are plenty of excellent people who aren’t math experts. But by-and-large math is one of the most important subjects being taught in schools. Frankly, I think your attitude (“Math sucks, why are they forcing it on my son?”) is detrimental to your sons future. Instead, perhaps you should be understanding (“I know son, math was rough on me too”), but think of his future and encourage him to put up with it for a few more years, perhaps even get into a study group or tutoring if it’s tough.
Yes, algebra, like many other things, is useless if you don’t know it. The people who don’t know it get jobs flipping hamburgers and then confirm they do not need algebra to flip burgers.
This reminds me of a documentary I saw somw years ago about some nomads who lived herding goats in the desert. The little boy was helping his father with the goats and their only concern was the drought they were having. They asked the father if the kid went to school. “What for?” he asked. “Here reading and writing and math are useless. That is good for you people who have nice homes, books, etc.” He had it the wrong way around. To him reading is something you do once you have a nice home and a book. He never thought that reading may be what allows you to have a nice home and a book.
Algebra is a very useful and necessary tool if you know it but, of course, if you don’t know it it is useless. Yes, most Americans do not use algebra because they do not know it. They cannot figure out their utility bills either… because sometimes it requires algebra. So they just pay whatever and complain the darn bill is too complicated.
People who earn minimum wage pay thousands of dollars worth of bills without question because they do not know enough to analyze them. Most people will buy a house, a car or other major things without understanding the bills they are paying. When I bought my house I took the trouble to analyze the apportionment of taxes and utilities and saved myself $600 for those few minutes. The realtor told me it was the first time he saw any buyer analyze the bill so carefully.
But, as has been pointed out, even if it had no immediate practical use (and it has many) it would be useful in that it teaches logical thinking etc. You can never know too much and you almost always need to know more. But I guess parents excusing their kids from learning rather than encouraging them to learn is a sign of the times. Another sign of the times is all the foreigners coming to the US to fill positions Americans are not qualified for… And their kids will own the company where your kid will be sweeping the floor… if he’s lucky.
I demand excellence regardless of what class my kids are taking! But I also expect the Private School which they attend to be resonable about what courses are mandatory above and beyond the basics. If a kid who is going to be a senior next year is planning to go to culinary school to become a chef, 4 years of algebra 1, algebra 2, advanced algebra, etc.is unneeded. 1 year of algebra is fine, but how about replacing the other years with accounting and business math. At least he may use those if he opens his own restaurant. But his school advisors insist that those are electives, and do not count towards the math requirements!
That’s bullshit and it’s screwing up his schedule! If he wanted to be a cop he shouldn’t take 4 years of Flower Arrangement. If he wanted to be an engineer he shouldn’t be forced to take 4 years of Ballet.
Being a chef is being a kind of artist. They love their craft and are focused on what they need to acheive their goals. And he damn well knows he doesn’t need more algebra!
PEACE
pkbites, with all due respect – i.e., none, really – you’re being a whiner. I use algebra and other more-than-just-arithmetic mathematical processes constantly, and I’m a freakin’ journalist. Wanna know one way algebra’s helped me? I was covering a new lottery game the state of New York had just introduced, a keno game called Quick Draw. I’d picked up an “odds card” – which purports to tell you how often you’ll win – and, realizing that the key thing was not how often you “won” but how much return you could expect to get on every dollar you bet, set myself to the task of crunching out exactly that. I’d forgotten a lot of numerical analysis, so I had to rederive all the formulas for combinations and permutations by myself, from square one. But I did it, and the formulas came out right, and imagine my surprise when, despite the exceptional variety among the game’s various payoff schedules, I totaled up my figures and found out that every single game offered exactly 60 cents’ return on every dollar bet!
By understanding higher math, I discovered – on my own – an underlying fact about the state lottery that the state pretty much counts on every taxpaying citizen not to know. You sound like a God-fearin’, gummint-hatin’ Amurcan … don’t you want your kid to have enough of a grasp of math to know when the state is ripping him off?
Sailor – you’re 100% right. Algebra is something that is useless if you don’t know it. I am not a “math person.” I avoided algebra in HS and didn’t go on to college after HS. Finally, after my kids were in school, I started college and had to take algebra (at the lowest dummy level, BTW). After I got some experience with basic algebra I found myself using it often in day to day life. I had indeed “gotten along fine” without it – but I was shocked to find how much easier things like cooking, sewing, decorating and home finance became once I knew some basic algebra.
Also, as Beatle pointed out, I had a much harder time learning algebra in my 30s than I would have had I started learning it in my 'teens. Furthermore, my lack of math skills meant that I had to pay for and take 3 remedial math courses in college. This cost me $$$ and time.
And, Drum God? This was the first of your posts I’ve read - welcome to the board. Your post was perfect, I really couldn’t add a thing (although I do seem to be posting anyway, don’t I?). I’m sure you’re going to be an asset to our merry band.
When I was in high school, which wasn’t all that long ago (I graduated in 1996), I too wondered why I had to take algebra. Then I took geometry, and wondered when I would ever use it. Then I took algebra II, and was certain that I would never use imaginary numbers, EVER. I took trig and math analysis, and just felt like I was wasting my time. In college I took intro to astronomy to get out of my math requirement, and you know what? I really liked it. I was interested in it. I wanted to learn more, but I couldn’t, because I had goofed off during math in high school. I was nowhere near qualified to start learning calculus, let alone astronomical math. Now that I’m a college graduate, I greatly regret that I did not try my hardest in math. I told myself that I was a Humanities person and left it at that. This summer, I plan to take algebra via the internet, because I am sorry I screwed up my chance the first time around. Math is useful - if only I had known that when I was in high school.
This is sounding more like a GD (or perhaps a IMHO) than a GQ at this point, but to tackle it as a GQ…
Schools require students to take four years of advanced mathmatics (actually, in my school it was three years, though most students took four in order to be ready for college) because mathmatics is a skill that applies to a lot of fields including almost all technical and advanced business vocations not to mention its multiple applications in everyday life as illustrated above. Besides which, the school is trying to give out the most well rounded education possible which means learning a decent amount about mathmatics, humanities, science, history, etc. Seeing as how most people change their careers multiple times in life, having a rounded education can only be helpful later in life. If you have questions about why your son’s particular school requires the classes he must take, why not ask the school board since they ultimately make these decisions.
Incidentally, I’m a horticulturalist who rarely has to use advanced mathmatics, but does find it nice to know on those occassions when I need to find out how much cubic volume of mulch or soil is needed in an area, or what the percentage increase in plant costs are over last year.
Math essentially is pure logic. It helps strengthen the mind. Just like the end result of lifting weights is a strengthened muscle. Algebra is just a stepping stone to higher level math. And IMHO all youngsters should be taught it (as well as trig, calculus, etc…). The world is becoming a more technical place (…more jobs are being created than filled in tech). Your kid is part of the next generation that will one day take our place. We are gonna need people with “good minds” and math is a fantastic way to attain a good mind.
pkbites: Let me understand - you spend your money to put your kids in private school, I assume because you think the public schools aren’t doing a very good job.
Now you’re mad because private school turns out to be tough? You want to replace Algebra with Driver’s Ed and Checkbook Balancing 101.
This makes almost no sense to me. You can find plenty of schools churning out mindless droids who spent 3 years weaving baskets and working on cars. Send your kid there if you don’t like it.
Incidentally, to compare 3 years of flower arranging to 3 years of Algebra is assinine. Flower arranging is a specific skill for a specific trade or hobby. Algebra is a fundamental subject that touches on every area of life.
I’m guessing that you don’t know much Algebra yourself, or if you do you never had the mental discipline to try to apply it to real-life situations. Thus, you think it’s ‘useless’. Many of the people here have been telling you (and some of us are starting to yell) that it is wildly useful, and will come into use daily if you are motivated enough to get into the habit of THINKING.
If you really want to do your son a service, the next time he comes to you with a question like, “Why do I need Geometry?”, take the time to learn enough of it yourself so that the two of you can do something ‘cool’ with geometry. The people on this forum would be a great resource for this, and I originally thought that’s what this thread would be about.
If he’s a car buff, show him how you can use geometry to figure out how to design a racetrack (hint: the curves are angled so that the force of the car going around them goes through the bottom of the car and doesn’t put side loads on the tires). If he really wants to be a fireman, use Algebra to show him how to calculate how a flame spreads, or how high a ladder he needs to get to a 50 ft window if it has to be angled 15 degrees for safety.
Really, you can find a use for Algebra in just about any field. Find out what interests him, and show him.
Certainly, as everyone thus far has attested, algebra is useful. Of course, I’m a physicist, so it’s pretty obvious that I use it, but then, so does an interior designer. All this is besides the point, though. Even if algebra had no use whatsoever, even for technical jobs, it would still be worth learning simply for the sake of learning. You mentioned that your son aspires to be a chef, a form of artist. Why do we study any art? Because it is beautiful. A perfectly done souffle is no more useful than a loaf of bread, but it is worthwhile because it is beautiful, to the eyes, nose, and tongue. Algebra, too, is beautiful, and is worthwhile for that reason.
Cute trick, Biotop. But from step 4 to 5, you divided by X-Y. But since X=Y (as stated in your first step), you’re really dividing by zero, which is undefined. Anything that follows after your 5th step is not logically derived, and so finding that 2=1 by illogic isn’t surprising.
AWB, BS in Computer Science and Mathematics
Let’s examine what you said:
So, this professional group of yours excludes ALL engineers, chemists, astronomers, pilots, physicists, accountants, environmental scientists, computer programmers, architects, MATH teachers, etc.
First, you say “NONE of them ever use algebra”, then they “rarely, if ever” used it. Instead of pointing out the inconsistency in your statements, perhaps this shows evidence that it is not a skill that is completely unused. And a couple of your job descriptions are a bit over generalized (“ceo’s”, “teachers”, and “investigators”) I’ve met many examples of all three who depend on algebra on a day-to-day basis.
Oh, you know, never mind. I had some good, well-reasoned arguments about this, but I just don’t care. It goes along the lines of my liberal ex-friends (5 Journalism Majors, 1 English Major) who used to say things like “I think engineering is stupid” and “science has caused a lot more problems than it will ever solve”, and the best one of all, “we’d all be a lot better off without engineers. Who do you think destroyed the environment?”
I hope NO kid HAS to learn algebra. I hope NO kid HAS to attend school either. Just let them all take up jobs that require no algebra (like Journalism, English teaching, Football player, etc.) so engineers and scientists like myself can command unlimited wages and power.
You want to know how prevalent a requirement for skill in algebra is? Try this one out: look around your house, or your office. How many things can you see did NOT require a skill in algebra to produce? Unless you live in an 1890’s house like those people on that BBC show, there probably aren’t too many things that did not use algebra in their creation.
It’s a private school?
You choose that school because of its curriculum, you paid money for it, and now you’re unhappy with it? Did they not have the curriculum in effect when you signed the contracts? Or did you just not realize how hard it was going to be?
Actually, BioTop’s equations don’t even work BEFORE he divides by zero:
X²-Y²=XY-Y²
(X+Y)(X-Y)=Y(X-Y)
It is not apparent to me how the second line derives from the first. (X+Y)(X-Y) does not equal (Y)(X-Y), obviously. He dropped an X from the right side of the equation - which is how the equation comes to be short 1 at the end.
I don’t have time to do it right now, but you are going to get slammed for this RickJay.
There is one pragmatic thing to keep in mind. If you really learn calculus well, then for the rest of your life, you can live in a nice neighborhood, work at home, and make at least 20-30 bucks an hour working at home, for as many or few hours a week as you want, any hours you want, and turn down work as much as you feel like it.
Every upscale neighborhood in the United States, and probably anywhere in the world has at least a dozen rich kids every year who desperately need to learn calculus. Their parents will fork over the bucks at your convenience to have their kids tutored. You could teach poor kids too, of course, but they don’t pay as well. The supply is endless, and the competition almost non-existent.
Actually his equation doesnt even get past that step if you simplify it at first, you get (x+y)(x-x) = y(x-x) which is then (2x)(0)=0 which is true. And also, keep in mind, x=y, so y(x - y) = yx - y^2 = x(x) - x^2 = x^2 - x^2 so he can swap the two however he wants.
And algebra is not only just to give yourself a challange and to learn mental discipline, but since algebra is so “hard”, why would anyone ever learn it? Some people might, but it would eventually just die out, and thus how would our world be without algebra?
And think of your son’s school making algebra mandatory a blessing. Of course right now your son feels his life is entirely mapped out, but what if he changes his mind? Do you realize how many doors would be slammed shut for him? He would have to devote a few years of his life to get back, only to just begin to open more doors, all the while attempting to support himself with a nice fat salary at the local McDonald’s.