# Why do they use Wales as a surname? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598 "2004-11-13T21:01:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hadrian0117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Hadrian0117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hadrian0117)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/1 "2004-11-13T21:01:41Z")
Why do Princes William and Harry use Wales (form their father’s title) as a surname? Their actual surname is Mounbatten-Windsor. They both used it at school instead of their titles. Harrys going into the Army and he’ll apparntly be know as Officer Cadet Wales or Mr Wales. When his grandmother was in the ATS she was Subaltern Elizabeth Windsor. If it’s a question of Mounbatten-Windsor why don’t they just shorten it to Windsor (eg [Lady Louise Windsor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Louise_Windsor)). Is it their personal preference or is their another reason? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/2 "2004-11-13T21:35:34Z")
I’ve never realised they’d opted to be called that. From what I remembered is that at school they were called Windsor. But few go by the ‘real’ name anyway: > [@](#): > > For example, when the Duke of York was in the Navy, he was referred to as Lieutenant His Royal Highness, the Prince Andrew before he became the Duke of York, and Lieutenant His Royal Highness, the Duke of York afterwards - but not Lieutenant Mountbatten-Windsor. While Mountbatten-Windsor was entered into the marriage register for Prince Andrew and Princess Anne, the Prince of Wales was entered as simply “The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George”. [http://www.free-definition.com/Mountbatten-Windsor.html](http://www.free-definition.com/Mountbatten-Windsor.html) (And it’s not as if there’s much tradition to Windsor anyway - they were Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, until a certain Adolf made Germanic names unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/3 "2004-11-13T21:38:38Z")
> [@Hadrian0117](#): > > Why do Princes William and Harry use Wales (form their father’s title) as a surname? Their actual surname is Mounbatten-Windsor. They both used it at school instead of their titles. Harrys going into the Army and he’ll apparntly be know as Officer Cadet Wales or Mr Wales. When his grandmother was in the ATS she was Subaltern Elizabeth Windsor. If it’s a question of Mounbatten-Windsor why don’t they just shorten it to Windsor (eg [Lady Louise Windsor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Louise_Windsor)). Is it their personal preference or is their another reason? Nobility and (some British) bishops use geographical names with which they are titled where you or I might use a surname. Let’s say your name is Hadrian Smythe, and you’re 14th Earl of Holdernesse. Your legal signature is “Hadrian Holdernesse” short for “Hadrian, Earl of Holdernesse.” A bishop signs formal documents with, e.g., “Rowan Cantuar.” (i.e., Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury [_Archiepiscopus Cantuarii_ in ecclesiastical Latin]). Wills and Harry are Prince N. of Wales, i.e., the sons, in the royal succession, of the Prince of Wales. Then-Princess Elizabeth was daughter of the King, so she used the family name. The Gloucesters and Kents, who are male-line Windsors (as opposed to Elizabeth’s 1960 Windsor/M-W ruling on the royal family name, will regularly use Gloucester or Kent in lieu of a surname. There’s an autobiography, now out of print, by the Anglican Church of Canada’s first Bishop of the Arctic, whose given name was Archibald. He entitled it with his formal episcopal signature, _Archibald the Arctic_. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/4 "2004-11-14T00:05:39Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > (And it’s not as if there’s much tradition to Windsor anyway - they were Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, until a certain Adolf made Germanic names unpopular. Wrong war. It was during on 17 July 1917, during World War I, when a certain Kaiser made German names unpopular. (And he was a cousin to King George V.) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/5 "2004-11-14T00:16:02Z")
> [@Hadrian0117](#): > > Their actual surname is Mounbatten-Windsor. No, it’s just [Windsor](http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1917). ---
**Author:** ![Mirasawa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mirasawa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirasawa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/6 "2004-11-14T00:21:53Z")
I wanna put my estate name as my surname. Mirasawa #F208 Though I’m only renting, maybe it should be: Mirasawa Stuff-in-#F208 \_ \_ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/7 "2004-11-14T00:22:49Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Then-Princess Elizabeth was daughter of the King, so she used the family name. Slight emendation to this: It’s not that the U.K.'s monarchs _have_ to use the family name as surname; it’s that they **prefer** to, for reasons that will become obvious. In the past, monarchs would sign domestic documents with “Georgius R.” or “Victoria R.” (for Rex or Regina); whether it held true for England/Great Britain, I’m not sure, but treaties were often signed as “Carolus Hisp.” (for Charles of Spain) or “Friedrich Bayern” (for Friedrich of Bavaria). However, “Elizabeth Great-Britain-and-Northern-Ireland” doesn’t make it as a surname, so “Elizabeth Windsor” was what she used as Princess. ---
**Author:** ![Hadrian0117](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Hadrian0117](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hadrian0117)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/8 "2004-11-14T01:15:57Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > No, it’s just [Windsor](http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/britstyles.htm#1917). No, it’s Mounbatten-Windsor. Queen Elizabeth II issued an Order-in-Council in 1960 that gave the surname Mounbatten-Windsor to the descendants of her and Prince Phillip who; didn’t have the style of Prince/Princess & HRH, weren’t married women. However when Princess Anne (who usually signed her name Anne Windsor) got married in the 1970s Buckingham Palace used the name Mounbatten-Windsor in her marriage banns. After marriage it changed to Phillips. Mounbatten-Windsor in now considered the surname of all the Queen’s male-line descendants. None of them actually use it. Prince Edward used the names Edward Windsor before he was married and Edward Wessex for professional reasons. His daughter is styled _Lady Louise Windsor_ bur her name his Louise Mounbatten-Windsor. Anne’s kids use their father’s name. Does anyone know what name Prince Andrew’s girls use at school? ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/9 "2004-11-14T01:27:22Z")
The Mountbatten surname was Anglicized from [Battenberg](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWmountbatten.htm) as part of the fallout from anti-German sentiment during World War I. Louis of Battenberg (later Lord Mountbatten) was born in Windsor shortly before Queen Victoria, one of his great-grandmothers, died. Lord Mountbatten, also an uncle of Prince Philip, was influential in the upbringing of the current Prince of Wales. More about the life of “Lord Louis” can be found [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mountbatten,_1st_Earl_Mountbatten_of_Burma) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/10 "2004-11-14T01:44:25Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Wrong war. It was during on 17 July 1917, during World War I, when a certain Kaiser made German names unpopular. (And he was a cousin to King George V.) Apologies, I let crap humour deny the truth :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/11 "2004-11-14T07:24:01Z")
It was a last name good enough for Josey! ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/12 "2004-11-14T17:23:13Z")
> [@](#): > > by Polycarp > Nobility and (some British) bishops use geographical names with which they are titled where you or I might use a surname. > > Let’s say your name is Hadrian Smythe, and you’re 14th Earl of Holdernesse. Your legal signature is “Hadrian Holdernesse” short for “Hadrian, Earl of Holdernesse.” A bishop signs formal documents with, e.g., “Rowan Cantuar.” (i.e., Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury [Archiepiscopus Cantuarii in ecclesiastical Latin]). According to some books I have read, the signature would simply be “Holdernesse” or “Canturbury”. The lord and the fief/constituency considered to be the same. Does anyone know how members of the House of Commons sign their documents? In Shakespeare’s plays, you often see rulers referred to by the name of their domain. “York and Gloucester were playing cards with France, while Denmark got drunk and made a pass at Norway’s wife.” ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/13 "2004-11-14T17:47:56Z")
**Cecil Adams** on [What did Prince Andrew’s superiors in the Royal Navy call him?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_136.html) > [@](#): > > royal family names do not necessarily coincide with surnames. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/14 "2004-11-14T18:17:13Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > It was a last name good enough for Josey! If Wales is outlawed, only outlaws will have Wales! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/15 "2004-11-14T21:59:24Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Nobility and (some British) bishops use geographical names with which they are titled where you or I might use a surname. > > Let’s say your name is Hadrian Smythe, and you’re 14th Earl of Holdernesse. Your legal signature is “Hadrian Holdernesse” short for “Hadrian, Earl of Holdernesse.” A bishop signs formal documents with, e.g., “Rowan Cantuar.” (i.e., Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury [_Archiepiscopus Cantuarii_ in ecclesiastical Latin]). Minor quibble: Doesn’t a peer just sign the name fo the title? That is, in the example above woudn’t his legal signature be just “Holderness”, and not “Hadrian Holderness”? Though in novels I have seen where peers sign do sign themselves Firstname Title informally, and his friends might also refer to him that way, e.g. “Hadrian Holderness is having a hunting party at his place next month”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/16 "2004-11-14T22:03:56Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Nobility and (some British) bishops use geographical names with which they are titled where you or I might use a surname. > There’s an autobiography, now out of print, by the Anglican Church of Canada’s first Bishop of the Arctic, whose given name was Archibald. He entitled it with his formal episcopal signature, _Archibald the Arctic_. There was a funny example similar to this in a P.G. Wodehouse story. The main character’s uncle was a vicar who, in the course of the story, was raised to a bishop and assigned to a African see named Bongo-Bongo. In his next letter to the nephew, he signed himself “Theodore Bongo-Bongo”. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/17 "2004-11-14T22:58:13Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Minor quibble: Doesn’t a peer just sign the name fo the title? That is, in the example above woudn’t his legal signature be just “Holderness”, and not “Hadrian Holderness”? Though in novels I have seen where peers sign do sign themselves Firstname Title informally, and his friends might also refer to him that way, e.g. “Hadrian Holderness is having a hunting party at his place next month”. They can choose to sign it only with the title, if they want. And IANAL, but I’m sure there’s not single definition of ‘legal signature’, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-they-use-wales-as-a-surname/274598/18 "2004-11-14T23:59:02Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > There was a funny example similar to this in a P.G. Wodehouse story. The main character’s uncle was a vicar who, in the course of the story, was raised to a bishop and assigned to a African see named Bongo-Bongo. In his next letter to the nephew, he signed himself “Theodore Bongo-Bongo”. Controversial American Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby “Jack” Spong is a friend of some co-parishioners, and I had the pleasure of getting to know him when he led a teaching weekend at our church in 2001. One of his anecdotes concerns another famous Anglican Bishop, Desmond Tutu, who before becoming Archbishop of Cape Town was Bishop of Lesotho, which is locally pronounced with the two O’s sounded as -oo- as in choo-choo. He jokingly offered to use his good offices towards having Jack named Bishop of Hong Kong, so that they would be Tutu of Lesotho and Spong of Hong Kong. 🙂