# Why do truthers espouse such an out-there theory? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518 "2012-10-02T21:09:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/161 "2012-10-05T19:32:02Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **split p&j,** nothing you are introducing is new to most of us. It has been thoroughly refuted from many angles and by many responsible, knowledgeable people, which doesn’t stop others from repeating it with their fingers in their ears. Much like Whak-A-Mole, it crops up periodically. > > If you haven’t yet, please read, carefully, [this multi-page site by Popular mechanics.](http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842) Note the date that it was written (2005). No new information has come forward since then that would change the obvious. **split p&j,** perhaps you didn’t see my post #152, so I will repeat it here. If you have an issue with anything at the PM site, perhaps you could pick out one item and start another thread about it. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/162 "2012-10-05T19:32:03Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > That is just one of many videos, do I really need to link to all of them? There is also the eyewitness accounts from the people in the lobby and basements. The one you chose to link to shows no explosion, just some guys using a pay phone and a loud noise off-camera. Did you choose the least probative and persuasive video to show us first, and save all the good ones for later? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/163 "2012-10-05T19:32:55Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Yes, I think he would have been convicted of conspiracy in connection with 9/11 had he stood trial. I’m all ears to hear about “smoking gun”? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/164 "2012-10-05T19:37:01Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The difference is, if the WTC had been shut down for a weekend, there would be thousands of people involved. Any of those people could come forward and confirm that in fact, their office was asked to shut down for the weekend. None of them have. Nobody has offer photos of the WTC that night showing half of the building mysteriously dark or anything else like that. > > It’s true that you can’t prove a negative, and the lack of evidence isn’t proof it didn’t happen. What it does mean is that contrary to claims there is no proof of a power shutdown having happened. We have one person claiming it did, and that’s it, no other corroboration or evidence to support the claim. I did not ask for further evidence or counter-evidence. I was just saying that you should subject any evidence including official version, to same scrutiny. That’s all. I’m afraid that power of State does its wonders in softening strong stand against some dude on Internet. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/165 "2012-10-05T19:38:04Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > I’m not really seeing how a generator in the basement could explode due to an impact at the top of the building, close to 80 floors away. > > William Rodriguez says the basement exploded first, then the plane hit. [Here.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_LlJzR2oYI) Hang on a moment. How does this make sense in the conspiracy narrative? The building didn’t collapse when the plane hit, so if there were explosives in the basement, they weren’t for the purpose of demolition. You can’t claim that the explosions in the basement were part of the fireball when the plane hit, because they were in the basement. So from the start, claims of explosions in the basement _before_ the plane hit don’t actually support the conspiracy claim either. It goes back to the basic problem with truthers. You aren’t looking for a consistent narrative. You’re starting with your conclusion and then looking for any random anomaly and claiming it as evidence, even if that gets you a nonsensical narrative of what happens. Now, it isn’t actually hard at all to see how the plane hitting the top of the building could cause explosions in the basement. There were multiple elevator shafts running from the basement to the observation deck. When the plane hit the building, debris and burning jet fuel fell down the shafts, causing explosions and fires on multiple floors all the way down to the basement. This is supported by witnesses and evidence. Claims that the explosions in the basement occurred before the plane impacts are not as well supported. William Rodriguez has changed his story several times, and does not appear to be a very reliable source of information on what happened. He also was not in a position to see when the plane hit the building, since he was in the basement. If he based that on the sound of the impact, you need to keep in mind that the sound would have taken time to reach him being some distance away, and he’d be hearing it with a delay. It’s also possible that what he thought was the sound of the impact was actually an echo off other buildings, or a secondary explosion or other debris falling. He’s not in a position to reliably claim the basement exploded before the plane impact. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/166 "2012-10-05T19:43:27Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The difference is, if the WTC had been shut down for a weekend, there would be thousands of people involved. Any of those people could come forward and confirm that in fact, their office was asked to shut down for the weekend. None of them have. Nobody has offer photos of the WTC that night showing half of the building mysteriously dark or anything else like that. > > It’s true that you can’t prove a negative, and the lack of evidence isn’t proof it didn’t happen. What it does mean is that contrary to claims there is no proof of a power shutdown having happened. We have one person claiming it did, and that’s it, no other corroboration or evidence to support the claim. Why do you assume it would be shut down during office hours. My understanding was that most of the time is it was early in the morning, like between 3 and 5 am. I know you can find photos of parts of the building being dark at these times. Also the building was undergoing construction in the weeks leading up to 911. people could have snuck in with them and nobody would really notice. I know that plenty of random people show up on my job, I can’t remember them. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/167 "2012-10-05T19:46:41Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Why do you assume it would be shut down during office hours. My understanding was that most of the time is it was early in the morning, like between 3 and 5 am. Major financial institutions don’t shut down at night. The office might be mostly empty, but the computers are still running. > [@](#): > > I know you can find photos of parts of thwe building bien dark at these times. Then do so. Find a photo where half the building is dark at once (which is what Scott Forbes claimed happened). > [@](#): > > Also the building was undergoing construction in the weeks leading up to 911. people could have snuck in with them and nobody would really notice. Citation once again required. > [@](#): > > I know that plenty of random people show up on my job, I can’t remember them. I’m willing to bet you don’t work at a major financial institution in a building that’s already been a terrorist target in the past. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/168 "2012-10-05T19:58:11Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > Hang on a moment. How does this make sense in the conspiracy narrative? The building didn’t collapse when the plane hit, so if there were explosives in the basement, they weren’t for the purpose of demolition. You can’t claim that the explosions in the basement were part of the fireball when the plane hit, because they were in the basement. So from the start, claims of explosions in the basement _before_ the plane hit don’t actually support the conspiracy claim either. > > It goes back to the basic problem with truthers. You aren’t looking for a consistent narrative. You’re starting with your conclusion and then looking for any random anomaly and claiming it as evidence, even if that gets you a nonsensical narrative of what happens. > > Now, it isn’t actually hard at all to see how the plane hitting the top of the building could cause explosions in the basement. There were multiple elevator shafts running from the basement to the observation deck. When the plane hit the building, debris and burning jet fuel fell down the shafts, causing explosions and fires on multiple floors all the way down to the basement. This is supported by witnesses and evidence. > > Claims that the explosions in the basement occurred before the plane impacts are not as well supported. William Rodriguez has changed his story several times, and does not appear to be a very reliable source of information on what happened. He also was not in a position to see when the plane hit the building, since he was in the basement. If he based that on the sound of the impact, you need to keep in mind that the sound would have taken time to reach him being some distance away, and he’d be hearing it with a delay. It’s also possible that what he thought was the sound of the impact was actually an echo off other buildings, or a secondary explosion or other debris falling. He’s not in a position to reliably claim the basement exploded before the plane impact. Look, you are trying to make it look like I only believe it could have only happend one way, my way. My claim is that the official story is bullshit. No more, no less. I don’t believe, and never said the fire balls traveled down the buildings in the elevator shafts. It’s the official story that claims that. Even though it would have been damn near impossible since the fire would not of had enough oxygen to make it that far. A case could be made that what he heard were the inital explosions needed to weaken the core of the buildings. That is the case I’m making, it’s not as impossible as people make it out to be. Eyewitness testimony can be unrelieable, true. But yet it is still use to convict people on a regular basis. Now you’re suggesting we throw all that out. Dissmiss eyewitness for 911, but use them any other time. ---
**Author:** ![split\_p\_j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@split\_p\_j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/split_p_j)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/169 "2012-10-05T20:07:21Z")
[Stoichiometry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric) for all that wonder why the fireball could not haven even made it to the basement, let alone blow things up down there. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/170 "2012-10-05T20:14:23Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > Dissmiss eyewitness for 911, but use them any other time. No. We dismiss cherry picked indivduals with uncorroborated stories that go against what thousands of others saw. We are not talking about a mugging in an alley. We are talking about the most widely covered news story in history. Finding one guy with an outlier account is not unusual. All those claims have been refuted long ago by logic and evidence. This has been done. You are not a trailblazer. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/171 "2012-10-05T20:18:34Z")
> [@split\_p\_j](#): > > [Stoichiometry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoichiometric) for all that wonder why the fireball could not haven even made it to the basement, let alone blow things up down there. Sorry, you need to actually show math rather than just linking to a word in Wikipedia. Furthermore, the claim is not that it was just the extent of the fireball. The claim is that debris and fuel fell down the shafts (some of which did run all the way from the observation deck to the basement). There’s this phenomena called gravity you may have heard of, where flaming debris falling down an elevator shaft will keep falling even if there somehow isn’t enough oxygen in the shaft to support combustion. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/172 "2012-10-05T20:41:27Z")
I was going to reply again but why bother. Its been done. p&j go ahead and read through this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=518232&page=25&highlight=truther). It was closed because someone tried to zombie it but there are 25 pages of bitchslapping conspiracies. If you don’t like that one there are tons of others just search. Its all been said. Parroting Alex Jones is not an effective argument. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/173 "2012-10-05T23:05:39Z")
There’s something ironic about a thread that starts out asking why truthers believe such far-out, nonsensical things… and turns into an argument about mysterious construction, explosions in the basement, radiation poisoning in the’50s, and “nano-thermite charges”. Also, is it just me, or did thermite not become part of the truther narrative until after _Mythbusters_ started using it on TV all the time? I don’t remember hearing truthers mention it in 2004/2005, and IIRC it’s not mentioned in the Popular Mechanics report. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518/174 "2012-10-06T00:49:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > There’s something ironic about a thread that starts out asking why truthers believe such far-out, nonsensical things… and turns into an argument about mysterious construction, explosions in the basement, radiation poisoning in the’50s, and “nano-thermite charges”. > > Also, is it just me, or did thermite not become part of the truther narrative until after _Mythbusters_ started using it on TV all the time? I don’t remember hearing truthers mention it in 2004/2005, and IIRC it’s not mentioned in the Popular Mechanics report. Ironic would be too poetic. What happens is that obvious troll shows up and everybody starts feeding it, shamelessly. Why? Same reason people like Jersey Shore and Honey Boo Boo - it feels good to see that world is populated with so many people crazier than you. It’s like watching a movie and then, 5 minute into it, your suspension of disbelief is being catapulted into stratosphere and you don’t even notice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-truthers-espouse-such-an-out-there-theory/636518.md?page=8)