# Why do vegetarians eat fish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454 "2003-10-03T22:40:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/81 "2003-10-14T16:24:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by duckofwindsor \* > \*\*Apparently you never opened the dictionary. Try again, and you’ll find there are several definitions. One is a specific fanatical Chinese sect that plundered missionaries in 1895. \*\* And this is relevant how? We’re still looking for that elusive definition that somehow includes fish. International Vegetarian Union > [@](#): > > The term ‘Vegetarian’ was coined in 1847. It was first formally used on September 30th of that year by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the innaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom. [The Vegetarian Society Of The United Kingdom](http://www.vegsoc.org/fish/fish.htm) > [@](#): > > A survey carried out by The Vegetarian Society revealed that a shocking 85% of vegetarians have visited eating establishments that are labouring under the misconception that vegetarians eat fish. Clearly this myth needs to be debunked That seems pretty conclusive to me. Debunking myths, that’s the Straight Dope way! The society that coined the word have no doubt and they even have a campaign on the point. **Vegetarians do no eat fish.** Any who are still confused should download these [these handy cards (PDF)](http://www.vegsoc.org/fish/downloads/fishybuis_cards_front.pdf) that the Vegetarian Society have helpfully produced. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/82 "2003-10-14T17:51:43Z")
Last fall I was bewitched by a tantalizing Berkeley sushi establishment. When do I earn the right to call myself a “vegetarian” again? Was I a vegetarian for the four years preceding that sushi dinner, or not? Do I get counted out because the beans I had at a restraunt last night _might_ have had lard in them? Does it change things if I specify “no lard” but they put it in anyway and I don’t know until after I’ve eaten it? If I eat a package of gummi bears, do I have to explain that to everyone before I tell them that it’s pretty important that I have a cheese pizza and not a pepperoni one? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/83 "2003-10-14T18:06:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*Right! Or swan, or crawled. > > no bugs either. > > People who “call themselves vegetarians” but who eat insects, etc give others who are true vegetarians a bad rap. \*\* Snipped. Then there are NO “true vegetarians” living. There are insects in most vegetables, and parts of them in flour, etc. Many are too small to see with the naked eye, and many are ground up so that you don’t notice them. The problem with Futile’s defintion of " **does not eat meat"** is that by some definitions- fish is NOT “meat”. I do agree that “pescetarian” is a good word for those who do not eat avian or mammal flesh but do eat arthopods & fish. However, that term seems to be relatively new, and is not well known. Sure, it might be better for those who do so to use that term to define themselves- but some may not agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/84 "2003-10-14T18:17:40Z")
_Originally posted by even sven_ > [@](#): > > When do I earn the right to call myself a “vegetarian” again? As soon as you finish eating your sushi, provided that your intent is to not eat any _more_ fish.🙂 > [@](#): > > Do I get counted out because the beans I had at a restraunt last night might have had lard in them? Not your fault. > [@](#): > > If I eat a package of gummi bears, do I have to explain that to everyone before I tell them that it’s pretty important that I have a cheese pizza and not a pepperoni one? Just tell them you’re not vegan. (I guess you may have to explain that.) ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/85 "2003-10-14T19:26:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Stonebow** \* > This may be key issue then. For many vegetarians, their eating habits are a large part of their moral framework. Sure, I agree with you, but until I start seeing Earlier Day Vegetarians or Great Aubergine Witnesses knocking at my door to convert me I won’t consider Vegetarianism to be more than a dietary choice (unless prescribed by a doctor). Dietary restrictions CAN be mandated by a religion, but it is not a religion in itself, so, no need to get all upset about fish-eating heathens _misusing_ the word. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/86 "2003-10-16T01:15:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dung Beetle \* > I’m a vegetarian and I really don’t eat meat. But I wouldn’t refer to myself as a “strict vegetarian” because there’s already a word for that, namely, “vegan”. They eat no gelatin, etc. Maybe you infrequent meat-eaters could call yourselves backsliding vegetarians?😉 So you **do** eat gelatin? Why do you call yourself a vegetarian? Aren’t you degrading the term for _real_ vegeatarians that don’t eat gelatin? Gelatin isn’t a vegetable. Milk is not a vegetable. Honey is not a vegetable. Eggs are not a vegetable. Mushrooms are not not a vegetable. So why is okay for people who eat these things to calls themselves vegetarians, forcing people who don’t to find a new term, but people that eat fish are “degrading” the term? Futile Gesture > [@](#): > > So why not say exactly that instead of using a factually incorrect term? Well, first of all, the claim that it is incorrect is opinion, not fact. Secondly, I was responding to the claim that there is a perfectly good other term. If you now claim that they can do perfectly well without using any term at all, that is another claim entirely. > [@](#): > > I don’t know. Why don’t you produce a vegetarian authority that says that and we’ll see? How about [this one:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=4104926#post4104926). > [@](#): > > It’s these people that end up (and it does already happen) being served fish as a ‘vegetarian’ dish. If fish is served as a “vegetarian” meal, then clearly fish is considered to be vegetarian. > [@](#): > > And some people consider horoscopes to be true. What some people consider doesn’t make it correct. In this case, it does. Word definitions are what people think they are. > [@](#): > > So say “I don’t eat any meat other than fish”. Or is that too hard? Is “I don’t eat any animal flesh, land or sea” too hard? > [@](#): > > What’s hard to understand about not eating meat being degraded to ‘doesn’t eat meat except fish’? “Degrade” implies a lessening in honor. I don’t see how eating fish is less honorable than eating no meat. > [@](#): > > If I was to call myself ‘The Ryan’ would you have no problem renaming yourself ‘The Absolute Ryan’ or 'The first Ryan before the other one" or would you be just the slightest bit put out? If you were to present yourself on this board as me, then I would be annoyed, because there is an authority as to who has what user name (the adminstrators). In general, however, you can register on any message board under any name. I have no claim to this name outside this message board. > [@](#): > > Waving to the crowd is just part of being President. Does everyone who waves to the crowd get to be President? Do I need to draw a Venn diagram here? Perhaps you do. I was responding to your implicit claim that having some of the qualities of a category is the same as having none. I was not claiming that that having some of the qualities is always the same as having all. > [@](#): > > See, we can continue throwing definitions about, but the bottom line is that being partly-vegetarian doesn’t make you vegetarian. But claiming that a person that eats fish is not a vegeatarian because they are only partly vegetarian is circular. ---
**Author:** ![skeptic\_ev](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@skeptic\_ev](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skeptic_ev)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/87 "2003-10-16T19:36:32Z")
To avoid complicated, repetitive conversations while still educating others (I’m all about expanding our vocabularies) and respecting the sensibilities of those for whom vegetarianism is a moral–rather than just health-related–choice, why not assume most people don’t know the word and say all at once, “I’m a pescetarian. I only eat vegetables, fruit and fish/seafood”? **Ringo** , I hate to break this to your brother, but many fish do indeed raise their young. I’m not sure whether this is true of any game fish or not, though. Question: What would one call a person who ate only fish, eggs, dairy, fruits and vegetables? ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/88 "2003-10-16T21:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > **Well, first of all, the claim that it is incorrect is opinion, not fact. Secondly, I was responding to the claim that there is a perfectly good other term. If you now claim that they can do perfectly well without using any term at all, that is another claim entirely.** Well make your mind up. You don’t like the word, and won’t use the phrase cos it isn’t the word. I don’t care, take your pick. > [@](#): > > \*\*How about \*\* Talking of circular arguments… > [@](#): > > **If fish is served as a “vegetarian” meal, then clearly fish is considered to be vegetarian.** Cool! Nothing is ever wrong. Exams must be easy in your world. “If this is what I am writing as the answer to the question, then clearly it must be considered to be the answer to the question. Don’t go telling me it’s wrong!” > [@](#): > > **In this case, it does. Word definitions are what people think they are.** I think “Ryan” means “incorrect”. > [@](#): > > **"Degrade" implies a lessening in honor. I don’t see how eating fish is less honorable than eating no meat.** Wheeee! This making up your own definitions is fun! Today my TV aerial fell down and my TV signal’s honour was lessened. But a nice strawman you’ve got there. The value, morals or honour of the vegetarian diet is nothing to do with the definition of the word and I have never said otherwise. > [@](#): > > **Perhaps you do. I was responding to your implicit claim that having some of the qualities of a category is the same as having none. I was not claiming that that having some of the qualities is always the same as having all.** This is getting silly. There is nothing ‘implicit’ going on. **In this case, and many others** having some of the qualities is not the same as having all. > [@](#): > > \*\*But claiming that a person that eats fish is not a vegeatarian because they are only partly vegetarian is circular. \*\* 😕 The phrase ‘partial vegetarian’ is yours. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/89 "2003-10-18T20:58:05Z")
Futile Gesture > [@](#): > > Cool! Nothing is ever wrong. I find your practice of completely misrepresenting my position to be very irritating. You asked me to present an example of someone considering the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish, and I did so. When I say that people consider the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish, I mean that people consider the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish. I do not mean that the issue is settled; if I had meant that, I would have said so. Apparently I’m not allowed to present any evidence unless each and every piece of evidence, in and of itself, proves my position absolutely. [quorte] Wheeee! This making up your own definitions is fun! Today my TV aerial fell down and my TV signal’s honour was lessened. [/quote] I’m not making up a http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=degrade”]definition. Definition after definition makes reference to value, morals, or honor. “Honor” doesn’t completely capture the concept being referenced, but the basic concept of corruption, devaluation, loss of integrity, etc., does apply to your TV signal. > [@](#): > > In this case, and many others having some of the qualities is not the same as having all. But the cases that you presented did not make that point. A charity volunteer that does not volunteer any time does not share _some_ of the qualities of a charity volunteer, he shares _none_. So by presenting that as an analogy, you were making the implicit claim that I was saying that one can be a vegetarian without having _any_ of the characteristics of a vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![NeSBiT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@NeSBiT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NeSBiT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/90 "2003-10-18T22:20:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scm1001 \* > \*\*but aren’t they killing the fruit cells? > > Also, buddists are allowed to eat meat, but not recommended > [http://www.lakehouse.lk/budusarana/2003/06/29/Budu11.pdf](http://www.lakehouse.lk/budusarana/2003/06/29/Budu11.pdf) \*\* I hope you’re kidding. You do realize fruit isn’t alive? Characteristics of life: movement responsiveness growth reproduction respiration digestion absorption circulation assimilation excretion ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/91 "2003-10-21T06:00:28Z")
Fruit may no longer be alive when one eats it, but it most certainly is alive while growing on the tree. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/92 "2003-10-21T10:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > **You asked me to present an example of someone considering the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish, and I did so. When I say that people consider the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish, I mean that people consider the word “vegetarian” to include the eating of fish. I do not mean that the issue is settled; if I had meant that, I would have said so.** What I asked for is an example of an **authoritive** source saying that vegetarianism include eating fish. What you are giving me is an example of people getting the definition wrong. Thanks for that. The SDMB is always interested in hearing examples of the wrong answer, they’re so hard to find. > [@](#): > > **Apparently I’m not allowed to present any evidence unless each and every piece of evidence, in and of itself, proves my position absolutely.** But all it’s evidence of is how people get things wrong. You can give me 1001 further examples of this evidence. It still won’t make it correct. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m not making up a http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=degrade”]definition. Definition after definition makes reference to value, morals, or honor. “Honor” doesn’t completely capture the concept being referenced, but the basic concept of corruption, devaluation, loss of integrity, etc., does apply to your TV signal. \*\* Very good. Now tell me how honour has anything to do with word definitions. If it hasn’t, why did you mention the word at all if it wasn’t a second attempt to introduce a strawman for you to knock down on an unrelated topic? > [@](#): > > \*\*But the cases that you presented did not make that point. A charity volunteer that does not volunteer any time does not share _some_ of the qualities of a charity volunteer, he shares _none_. \*\* They are both people. They both like the idea of volunteering time. They both think charities are good ideas. They both call themselves ‘volunteers’. Lots of “shared qualities” there except the actual practice of what defines the word, which was kind of exactly my point. The definitions of most words has nothing to do with the shared qualities, only about the unique quality. > [@](#): > > \*\*So by presenting that as an analogy, you were making the implicit claim that I was saying that one can be a vegetarian without having _any_ of the characteristics of a vegetarian. \*\* Nope. I was saying you can’t be a vegetarian if you do not meet the definition of the word. It has absolutely nothing to do with the shared qualities. Vegetarian does not mean “eating vegetables”. If this was the case we’d almost all be vegetarians. There is only one characteristic of a vegetarian. It means **not eating meat** which is where a fish-eater fails at the very first and fundamental quality. Any other similarities are irrelevant. However, I tire of this argument as it has reached the stage where we’re arguing about what the other said. I think my point is made and you have totally failed to produce anything other than hand waving to back up your original statement :~ > [@](#): > > This is the meaning that it has in our society, and saying that it “should” mean something else misses the point. If a person is offended at an “incorrect” use of the word, that would raise questions in my mind as to their reasons. It implies that they think that “vegetarian” is a special title, to be given out to a select few, that they are not eating meat not for personal reasons, but so they can boast about being vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454/93 "2003-10-21T11:55:37Z")
(Applause) **Futile Gesture** , I just want to say you’ve done a kick-ass job here! I stood back and watched you do a much better job of supporting my viewpoint than I could have. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-vegetarians-eat-fish/205454.md?page=4)