In hole. Stop digging.
No. You provided two purported facts: that the U.S. is highly religious, (a point you tainted by exaggerating to the extreme), and that Europeans are far less religious. Two does not equate to “many” in the English language, so your attempt to dodge the fact, (however it is spelled or illustrated), that you have been really light on facts in your presentations simply indicates that you are more interested in plaqying games than discussing the topic that you claimed to want to discuss.
Some suggested facts would include actual percentages of believers and non-believers in the U.S. and elsewhere, the locations where belief is higher or lower, the general dates when belief declined in those areas where it has declined, and so forth. Unless your real purpose is to simply show scorn for people whose world views are different from your own, then providing a serious factual basis for the discussion is a better place to start than merely making exaggerated and insulting claims about the people described by your topic.
Well, mocery is not going to get you reasoned answers. I suspect very few believers of any stripe hold to a belief in The Man in the Sky. Take it from there.
So, in spite of repeated requests, you still refuse to provide proof of something that is “so obviously true”. Is this a new debating tactic?
It’s yet another internet trope that anyone posts threads on discussion boards solely (or even primarily) to “rile things up.” This, I believe, is called “trolling” and is what you are, as I understand it, obligated to accuse someone who articulates opinions you disagree with of doing. In reality, the vast majority, myself included, ask questions because they want answers.
I truly feel that religion and religious believers are irrational and that believers are utterly incapable of discussing their beliefs in a logical and cogent matter. This feeling is the result of decades of sad and futile experience of trying to introduce logic into debates about religion. It also relates to my conviction–like it or not–that in order to believe in a deity, the existence for which there is not an iota of evidence, one must short-circuit the thinking processes which normally kick in when we are attempting to determine if something is true and/or real; one must engage in a kind of doublethink to maintain “faith” in, well, anything, in the absence of proof. In support of my assertion that a logical debate about religion with believers is impossible, I would simply point to the responses on this thread.
In any event, my question was not about the merits of religion but rather, a social phenomenon. That got lost very quickly in the shuffle, and I concede that letting my disdain for religion show in my OP may have been a causal factor in that. As I’ve noted, people cherish their beliefs and react vehemently to even an implied “attack” on them. That’s probably why criticism of religious beliefs is generally considered socially taboo—the vehement reactions such criticism elicits.
As I don’t think this community is actually capable of dispassionately discussing the actual question I asked, and since so many people seem to have gotten exercised by it, I don’t think this thread should be continued, nor should it be reborn under another name. I did receive, from a couple of people who cut through all the blather, some interesting hypotheses to consider.
I frankly don’t see the logic in the taboo against criticising religious mythology (as opposed to other equally dubious ideas; I doubt that I would be firestormed for saying that there really were no such things as elves and fairies), but I’m willing to respect it from here on out. I do think that religion (and irrationality in general) has been a major, perhaps the major, cause of the suffering the human race has undergone since the beginning of civilization and thus should be subject to severe and frequent criticism, but as long as we worship ignorance itself, such criticism will remain taboo. I acknowledge this unfortunate fact.
This MB is not particularly friendly towards religion. Anti-religious feelings are pretty common. If you can’t rally the poster here around an argument against religion, you’re doing something seriously wrong. It’s not because you’re the victim of blindly religious posters who can’t accept criticism.
OK–The Man in the Sky has many incarnations: God, Zeus, Allah, Yahweh, Kukulkan, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc. There are very few religions without a deity or deities (some Eastern religions appear not to have them in the way we define them). So I would say that most, if not all, believers, especially in this country, do believe in a deity or deities. Monotheism implies belief in a single all-powerful deity, which I have–yes, mockingly–referred to as The Man in the Sky since no one appellation would have been all-inclusive (tens of millions have been slaughtered, in fact, in debates over exactly what his name is).
If you like, then, insert (name of monotheistic deity) for Man In the Sky, and go from there. I don’t really see the difference in that something that doesn’t exist could have any name we choose to give it, but as I’ve noted, the distinction has often, historically, been a matter of life and death.
I don’t see myself as the “victim” of anything, but if I did, it would be of a silly social taboo against criticising one of the dumbest and most harmful ideas in the entire human experience.
Huh. I didn’t understand any of the replies to the OP as being opposed to discussion of the topic. So far it’s all been about the OP himself, not his topic. And justly so.
I’d be interested in such a topic myself, but only without the vitriol, contempt, and hyperbole. Don’t see that happening here though.
Aside from your insulting language ands refusal to actually address your own OP, I do not actually disagree with your original point. I think that it would even be interesting to discuss the why of that point. I have even offered you the opportunity to restart this nonsense with that goal in mind. You are the one who has raised the issue of trolling, but your general behavior, (not your actual question), is what is inclining me to believe that you may, indeed, be leaning in that direction.
So what? That belief is shared by a majority of posters in this forum. It does not, however, have anything to do with the question you purported to ask in the OP.
So, if you can’t insult people, you are not concerned with pursuing the question? You are giving more reason to consider the trolling hypothesis–something it would do you well to persuade me was not true.
(Interestingly, given your several times repeated claim that believers are not capable of rational discussion, the first clear articulation of a response to your question was posted by a believer. On the other hand, several of the posters who have taken you to task for a really poor OP and attitude are noted non-believers.)
There is no taboo against discussing (or even deriding) beliefs or mythology and the subject bubbles up, (sometimes at length), on this forum several times a year. There is, however, a general distrust of posters that claim to ask one question while going out of their way to insult a group that is mentioned by the question in a context that is irrelevant to the actual question.
So, you are unimaginative and ignorant of English vovcabulary?
“Deity” or even lowercase “god(s)” works quite well without offering insult to anyone./
I’ve long favored the theory that a major reason why America is so much more religious is that the lack of an official state religion forced the various religions to behave less brutally than they did in Europe. The Europeans had centuries of people burning their towns down because they were Catholic or Protestant, constant wars in the name of religion, and had the sect popular with the local establishment forced down their throat. It’s reasonable that that sort of thing would sour people on religion; in effect, religion in Europe unintentionally performed a multi-century propaganda campaign to convince people that religion is oppressive and brutal.
Religious groups here in America often did try to be oppressive - but typically they didn’t have armies and the full force of the government to back them up. And the fact that they couldn’t just smash anyone who disagreed with them forced them to put on a more pleasant face if they wanted to convert people.
And there is place to do that called the BBQ Pit.
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And here too. You can insult ideologies here; you just can’t insult individual posters.
Thanks for posting an intelligent answer in this otherwise disappointing thread. I had hoped the OP wanted to discuss the question in the subject line, but apparently it’s just another religion-bashing thread.
As to the “marketplace of religions” idea, I do wonder how often people who are dissatisfied with the religion they were raised in switch to another one, as opposed to just abandoning religion altogether. Anecdotally, I know a fair number of lapsed Catholics or lapsed Jews, but not a lot of Jews who became Catholics or vice versa. But maybe it’s more common to switch denominations within a religion or to just switch to a church with a different political slant.
I think you do. To wit:
Many of the posters reacting to your OP are not in the least religious. We have few hard core religious people on this MB who can’t stand honest criticism of their beliefs.
At any rate, we get a lot of new posters here who think the more established posters are ganging up on them because of their unpopular ideas, when in fact it’s a matter of not presenting a cogent argument, backed up by facts. You’re a lot more articulate than most of those posters, and should be able to find a lot of intellectual stimulation here if you’re willing to engage on the level that people here expect: Avoid broad generalities and be willing and able to back up your assertions with cites. Fight that, and you won’t last long. I sincerely wish you’ll choose the former course of action.
Re “vovcabulary”: look up “appellation” in the dictionary.
To the best of my knowledge, no deity is called “Deity.”
I’m guessing that switching between the various Protestant religion is quite common.
Then you (sigh) utterly misconstrued my motives because I was critical of religion and religious belief. This is yet another function of the social taboo against criticizing religion–its imposition obscures understanding.
Re the idea you suggest: I think that the various monotheistic religions are more alike than different (centuries of slaughter notwithstanding), so a person unfulfilled by one religion would be unlikely to be satisfied by switching to another similar one. Though if you convert to Judaism, the food’s a lot better.
I’ve heard the term “Deity” used to mean “gods in general” on occasion; I’m more likely to use "god(s) myself if I don’t just call them something like “favorite myths”.
No deity is called “The Man in the Sky,” but you had no trouble making that snide remark. As to capitalizing deity, I tend to capitalize the first words in sentences, regardless of my poor typing abilities.
So, would you like to try this discussion again with a clean OP?
Thanks for the link. I’m kind of shocked that the percentage is so high.