# Why do we dot lower case 'i' and 'j'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047 "2003-08-18T21:02:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/1 "2003-08-18T21:02:13Z")
And do you feel awkward having to put something in the body of the message when you asked your question in the title? ---
**Author:** ![J\_String](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ce73a5/32.png) [@J\_String](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_String)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/2 "2003-08-18T21:07:56Z")
1. Dunno. Diacritics that haven’t died yet? 2. Yeah, sorta. ---
**Author:** ![Trigonal\_Planar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/0ea827/32.png) [@Trigonal\_Planar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trigonal_Planar)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/3 "2003-08-18T21:17:58Z")
I’ve heard the dot over the i and j are known as the pittle and pottle, respectively. Not sure if this is true or not. Please dispell my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/4 "2003-08-18T21:22:04Z")
From the OED: > [@](#): > > The minisucle or ‘small letter’ _i_ is now surmounted by a dot. This is no original part of the letter, but is derived from a diacritic mark, like an acute accent, used to particularize the _i_ in positions in which it might have been taken merely for the stroke of another letter. . . . The same cause that led to the dotting of the _i_ contributed to the dotting of the _j_, originally merely a lengthened or tailed _i_ used finally as a more distinctive form. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/5 "2003-08-18T21:23:48Z")
However, in the original quote, they actually refer to the ‘small letter’ as the “minis **cu** le.”:smack: ---
**Author:** ![gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/eb8c5e/32.png) [@gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gentle)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/6 "2003-08-19T02:29:11Z")
Some people – well, my parents – add a horizontal stroke above the lower-case letter “u” as well, presumably to distinguish it from the lower-case “n”. They both write in classic, elegant script, where such letters easily become hard to tell apart. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/7 "2003-08-19T02:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker \* > **However, in the original quote, they actually refer to the ‘small letter’ as the "minis** cu\*\*le.":smack: \*\* Ummm… I’m reasonably sure that if you go back and check, the OED spelled it correctly: min **u** scule. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/8 "2003-08-19T04:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gentle \* > \*\*Some people – well, my parents – add a horizontal stroke above the lower-case letter “u” as well, presumably to distinguish it from the lower-case “n”. They both write in classic, elegant script, where such letters easily become hard to tell apart. \*\* They do? I don’t see how, unless you have some strange inverting form of dyslexia. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/9 "2003-08-19T05:22:39Z")
Reminds me of putting bars through z’s in algebra to distinguish them from twos. That got to be a habit for awhile, back in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/10 "2003-08-19T11:35:32Z")
**AndrewT** , imagine an italic script n. The upstroke doesn’t follow the initial downstroke; instead it follows more of a diagonal route. If you exaggerate this, the upstroke actually gets closer to the right-hand downstroke, making it look similar to a u in the same script. Look at the [Brush Script](http://www.setright.net/fonts/a-e/brush.gif) font, and imagine it even more exaggerated. Anyway, going back to the dots. Look at old manuscripts - the downstrokes all look very similar ([example here](http://www.bookmine.com/images/illum36710.jpg)). This has no dots - you can see how dots would help you to distinguish between, say “m” and “in” which would otherwise look almosty identical. The j is just a voiced form of the i, so it’s natural that it kept the dot. ---
**Author:** ![nineiron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e56c9b/32.png) [@nineiron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nineiron)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/11 "2003-08-19T12:39:12Z")
I can definitely see mixing up u’s with n’s. In fact, with my rather messy handwriting, you can throw m’s and r’s in there as well. When I write the word “murmur,” it might as well say “unrmrrm”; it’s just a series of slants. ---
**Author:** ![NFlanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@NFlanders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NFlanders)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/12 "2003-08-19T14:09:29Z")
**Commasense** , Merriam-Webster online ([http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)) lists miniscule is a variation of minuscule. While minuscule is preferred, I don’t think miniscule can be called incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-dot-lower-case-i-and-j/196047/13 "2003-08-19T14:44:46Z")
Hah! Those morons at Merriam-Webster! It really bugs me that dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive. That is, if enough people misspell something, dictionary editors will put it in there as an alternate version, even though the origin is simply a bunch of people making the same mistake. (Yes, I realize that the editors have little choice in this, and that if I were one of them, I’d be doing the same thing. It just annoys me that they don’t stand up for _righteousness._) I was merely pointing out (without checking, although I just did, and, of course, I was right) that the editors of the OED knew and used the older, **more** correct spelling. FYI, the “miniscule” variation undoubtedly arises from people’s familiarity with “mini,” derived from “minimum,” “miniature,” etc. These come from the Latin word _minimus_, which means “least,” and is the superlative version of _minor_, or “less.” It is from the Latin _minor_ that we get the English words “minus,” “minuscule,” and (indirectly) “minute.”