# Why do we flat out reject CT's? \[Conspiracy Theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841 "2012-06-02T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/181 "2012-06-11T21:28:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > However, it does not follow that there could not be an “underground cabal”. Do you believe in the Hollow Earth, with people running around on the inside, building cities and sneaking out of a hole near the poles to wreak havoc on us, the surface dwellers/ I mean, there is no evidence of it, but it could still be true, could it not? More to the point, it DOES follow that there is no secret cabal running things, since we already know pretty much what happened in every major social and political event for the last few hundred years and we know who did what and who said what. This indicates that what happened and what we think happened are the same. For there to be some cabal pulling the strings, we should be able to see unexpected things happening in a uniform way that can only be explained by “mysterious forces.” If the cabal is simply pulling the strings to make things happen in the way that they were going to happen, anyway, they are a pretty weak execution of power. And, as I alreay noted, your grasp of what actually has happened is so weak as to eliminate you from the list of people who are even capable of continuing this discussion. Added to this your persistent misreading of the text that has been provided in this thread along with your failure to understand what you have read in outside sources, makes this a truly worthless discussion. You are neither understanding what we say, nor, apparently, understanding the meaning of what you say. So, unless some other CT supporter shows up to spread misinformation, I am probably outta here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/182 "2012-06-11T21:30:02Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > And I give him members of the Illuminati who wielded great political power - two; the dukes of Weimar and Gotha. Well, you’re convincing me at this point that you’re either paying zero attention, or you’re just throwing stuff out there in the hope that as long as people have to keep responding to you, your claim that the CT is “possible” remains alive. (It doesn’t.) You mentioned those two members who wielded “great” power; **tomndebb** said they didn’t count for much in the large and splintered German federation and asked you if there were other powerful Illuminati supporters. Then you posted the name of the guy who crushed the Illuminati. See the problem? That’s not a supporter. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/183 "2012-06-11T21:39:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > However you do get points for saying “sheeple.” I didn’t think anybody did that unironically anymore. Well, you’ve got to think outside the box. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/184 "2012-06-11T21:44:51Z")
Thinking outside of the box is what they WANT you to do! Why do you think they make non-reactive tin foil (it’s not even real TIN for the same of the gods!) these days? THINK about it… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/185 "2012-06-11T22:21:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > For there to be some cabal pulling the strings, we should be able to see unexpected things happening in a uniform way that can only be explained by “mysterious forces.” What unexpected things would we see? Serious question. You’re geting at the basis of CTs. > [@Marley23](#): > > Well, you’re convincing me at this point that you’re either paying zero attention, or you’re just throwing stuff out there in the hope that as long as people have to keep responding to you, your claim that the CT is “possible” remains alive. (It doesn’t.) I posted that I rejected the JFK assassination conspiracy theories, I rejected the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I do _not_ reject the Bible conspiracy theory, i.e. Jesus had a wife and had children. It is possible. I do not reject conspiracy theories involving coups d’etat. One really happened - Operation AJAX, and it had some [interesting participants](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax). So I believe in at least two conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/186 "2012-06-11T23:00:16Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > What unexpected things would we see? Serious question. You’re geting at the basis of CTs. What he means is that there should be something “fishy” strung throughout all these events that can’t be explained by what we already know about the situation. Do you think Santa Claus was behind 9/11? No. Why? Well, that entire situation is explainable without the need to invoke Santa Claus. If Santa Claus really were involved, he sure didn’t do much – because the situation turned out the same way as if he hadn’t gotten involved in the first place. Same applies to the “underground cabal” theory. Is it _possible_? Yes, but so are infinitely many other things. There’s no reason to believe in one over the other unless there’s good, compelling evidence to suggest so that isn’t better explained by other frameworks/evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/187 "2012-06-12T03:00:06Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > What he means is that there should be something “fishy” strung throughout all these events that can’t be explained by what we already know about the situation. There is: > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the US govt had manipulated events for its own good (come on, now.. What govt. Hasn’t?). These events, once the American people have bought into them, give the mandate for action the president or current administration desires. Two examples come to mind immediately: > > The Gulf of Tonkin “incident”, and Iraq’s WMD program. There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated _governments_ for its own ends. Remember what Eisenhower said about the military-industrial complex in his farewell address? Orwell comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/188 "2012-06-12T03:22:25Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated _governments_ for its own ends. You haven’t explained what they are or how they prove it, and you haven’t dealt with the minor inconvenience of the evidence saying they haven’t existed since 1785. That’s sort of a problem in connecting them to the NWO, the military industrial complex, or anything else. Do tell us what this has to do with Orwell. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/189 "2012-06-12T04:07:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated _governments_ for its own ends. The problem with this sort of thing is that you are claiming mysterious forces when we already know pretty much all the facts-none of which required any outside manipulation. The Gulf of Tonkin incident is a good case in point. The U.S. was already engaged in a number of hostile actions against North Vietnam. When several of those actions occurred at the same time, the North Vietnamese perceived a concerted attack and decided to attack the _USS Maddox_ to make a point. The _Maddox_ fought them off without any problem. Two days later, the _Maddox_, joined by the _USS Turner Joy_, “saw” another attack based on bad weather and inexperienced technicians messing up the radar and sonar. Even though no attack had occurred, the Johnson administration, already looking for a fight, used the reported attack to get Congress to authorize a more direct involvement in the Vietnamese civil war. We know that the first attack did occur, (and why). We know that the second attack never occurred. We know that Johnson and McNamara were looking for an excuse and two “attacks” in two days gave it to them. We know the captain of the Maddox was already disclaiming the second attack on the same day that it happened, but that those later corrections did not make it to Johnson before he went to Congress. Johnson was too eager to believe what he needed to hear, but the reports of the second “battle” were not invented. There was no “conspiracy” on the part of the captain of the _Maddox_ to give a false report–in fact, he provided corrections as he discovered the errors. While it was certainly a hasty decision to go to war based on bad information, there was no “conspiracy” involved. Using the Gulf of Tonkin as an example of a “conspiracy” is silly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/190 "2012-06-12T04:16:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Do tell us what this has to do with Orwell. Don’t you see? Orwell, OH was the birthplace of General Adna Chaffee who helped suppress the Boxer Rebellion. It all fits! ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/191 "2012-06-12T06:17:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Don’t you see? Orwell, OH was the birthplace of General Adna Chaffee who helped suppress the Boxer Rebellion. It all fits! No, no, you got it all wrong. [Orwell, VT](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell,_Vermont) was the birthplace of physicist [Louis Winslow Austin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Winslow_Austin), known for his research on long-range radio transmissions. Those researches lead directly to the development of [HAARP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAARP). Don’t you _see?_ Wake up _sheeple!_ ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/192 "2012-06-12T06:29:39Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The U.S. was already engaged in a number of hostile actions against North Vietnam. When several of those actions occurred at the same time, the North Vietnamese perceived a concerted attack and decided to attack the _USS Maddox_ to make a point. The _Maddox_ fought them off without any problem. Two days later, the _Maddox_, joined by the _USS Turner Joy_, “saw” another attack based on bad weather and inexperienced technicians messing up the radar and sonar. Even though no attack had occurred, the Johnson administration, already looking for a fight, used the reported attack to get Congress to authorize a more direct involvement in the Vietnamese civil war. > We know that the first attack did occur, (and why). > We know that the second attack never occurred. > We know that Johnson and McNamara were looking for an excuse and two “attacks” in two days gave it to them. > We know the captain of the Maddox was already disclaiming the second attack on the same day that it happened, but that those later corrections did not make it to Johnson before he went to Congress. > > Johnson was too eager to believe what he needed to hear, but the reports of the second “battle” were not invented. There was no “conspiracy” on the part of the captain of the _Maddox_ to give a false report–in fact, he provided corrections as he discovered the errors. > While it was certainly a hasty decision to go to war based on bad information, there was no “conspiracy” involved. Sure, if you believe that those radar and sonar technicians weren’t Illuminati agents. C’mon, what were their names? They fade back into the woodwork as if they never existed; gone, untraceable. It’s quite cunning, really. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/193 "2012-06-12T13:09:56Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > There is: > > There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated _governments_ for its own ends. > > Remember what Eisenhower said about the military-industrial complex in his farewell address? > > Orwell comes to mind. Proof of the Illuminati? That’s a rather strong claim, I hope you know – proof of X means you actually need proof of X. If your “proof of the Illuminati” is better explained by other means, then it’s probably not very compelling evidence. Your “evidence” is a speech from Eisenhower: [http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html](http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html) There is absolutely nothing in here that serves as “proof of the Illuminati.” Typically, the most “famous” portion of that speech is as follows: "“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex,” Eisenhower warned. “The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.” " I may be putting words in your mouth but I assume this is the part you refer to. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/194 "2012-06-12T14:19:01Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > In a past thread I got into an argument with someone over whether or not colleges today actively discriminate against Asians or not. What I found was that when it came to those who assumed the conspiracy-theoretic mindset, counter-evidence was _useless_. Possibly worse than useless. Like I said earlier in this thread, evidence against the conspiracy is eventually just rolled into the CT narrative to “strengthen” it. Then the CTers demand evidence of something else and do the same thing again. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/195 "2012-06-12T17:04:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Possibly worse than useless. Like I said earlier in this thread, evidence against the conspiracy is eventually just rolled into the CT narrative to “strengthen” it. Then the CTers demand evidence of something else and do the same thing again. Ah yes, this is true. I recall bringing up the Academic Index as strong evidence against the opponent’s position, to which he began to completely butcher up its meaning and interpret it as being a strong point in _his_ favor instead. If I recall, even the very study he cited – his own cite! – did not agree with the position he was taking, and yet he rolled it into his narrative anyway and acted as if it did. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/196 "2012-06-12T21:35:16Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > There is absolutely nothing in here that serves as “proof of the Illuminati.” The military-industrial complex is an underground cabal. The Illumaniti is an underground cabal. One exists. One _might_ exist. > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > "“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the > military-industrial complex,” Eisenhower warned. “The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never > let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.” " > > I may be putting words in your mouth but I assume this is the part you refer to. Yes, that is the part of the speech where, according to Wikipedia, Eisenhower formulated the term, [military-industrial complex](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93industrial_complex#Origin_of_the_term). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/197 "2012-06-12T21:37:14Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > The military-industrial complex is an underground cabal. Cite? > [@](#): > > The Illumaniti is an underground cabal. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/198 "2012-06-12T21:49:14Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cite? > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > "“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the > military-industrial complex,” Eisenhower warned. Eisenhower’s words, not mine. Note: I am claiming that the military-industrial complex does exist. > [@Marley23](#): > > Cite? > [@tomndebb](#): > > Look, you have spent several pages trying to hold up the Illuminati as some sort of underground cabal **tomndebb** ’s words, not mine. Note: I am claiming that the Illuminati _might_ (still) exist. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/199 "2012-06-12T22:00:16Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Eisenhower’s words, not mine. Note: I am claiming that the military-industrial complex does exist. That’s not a cite, it’s someone else making the same claim you did. Where’s the evidence? > [@](#): > > Note: I am claiming that the Illuminati _might_ (still) exist. Again, I know that. Are you ever going to get around to explaining why you think they might exist in the face of all the evidence that says otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/200 "2012-06-12T22:49:33Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Eisenhower’s words, not mine. Note: I am claiming that the military-industrial complex does exist. So what? It is not a cabal. (For heaven’s sake, go look up the meaning of that word.) It simply means that the military likes toys that they can get from industry and industry likes to make money building military toys, so they tend to work together toward the same end. They do not do it in secret. They do not plot to overthrow the government to make it happen. They do not do anything more than openly engage in the activities that they do well, lobbying Congress for the funds to carry out their programs. Ike merely noted that the government should be aware of the natural synergy of those institutions and try to avoid letting them have their way without question. No plots. No secret societies. No shadow organizations that “really” run things. Sure, the military-industrial complex can be said to exist, but it is all done out in the open. You are being silly. > [@Kozmik](#): > > **tomndebb** ’s words, not mine. Note: I am claiming that the Illuminati _might_ (still) exist. Yeah, my words. My words say that you are ranting on for multiple pages with no idea what you are talking about and not the slightest shred of evidence for your claim (or that you even understand the issues). You do not understand eighteenth century political philosophy. You do not understand what it would take for some secret group to really control the world. You really have no idea even how to find evidence of your boogeymen. Do you believe the nonsense printed in The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion? Why or why not?. For that matter, aside from slavishly following a couple of eighteenth century crackpots, why would you ever believe in the Illuminati (other than as a loose bunch of political thinkers whose organization was broken up over 200 years ago)? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=11)