# Why do we flat out reject CT's? \[Conspiracy Theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841 "2012-06-02T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/261 "2012-06-15T17:43:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > what is your _specific_evidence that the _specific_ Illuminati existed after 1785 A [letter](http://thecounterpunch.hubpages.com/hub/Georges_Washington_did_acknowledge_the_Doctrines_of_the_Illuminati_was_spreading_in_United_States) by George Washington, a [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15146710&postcount=112) by you, and a cite in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. You think that the Illuminati did not exist after 1785 and you think that “it was revived briefly a few decades later”. Well, which is it?! In volume 22, page 226, Encyclopaedia Britannica: > [@](#): > > The moderate and constitutional demands of the Masonic lodges began to be accompanied by more democratic demands, and there in Milan, Bologna, Rome, and Naples cells of Illuminati, republican freethinkers, after the pattern recently established in Bavaria by Adam Weishaupt. The Elector of Bavaria banned the Illuminati, apparently in a March 2, 1785 edict. The Illuminati was banned in Bavaria; however, the Illuminati was not banned in Italy. There is evidence that the Illuminati was banned in Bavaria in 1785 and that the Illuminati was revived a few decades later in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/262 "2012-06-15T17:54:45Z")
So, you are just making a pedantic point about the Illuminati possibly existing (briefly) in Italy after the 1785 date then? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/263 "2012-06-15T17:58:18Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > A [letter](http://thecounterpunch.hubpages.com/hub/Georges_Washington_did_acknowledge_the_Doctrines_of_the_Illuminati_was_spreading_in_United_States) by George Washington Wasn’t this dealt with already? He never said the organization still existed. He said the ideas did, and those ideas were not unique. > [@](#): > > You think that the Illuminati did not exist after 1785 and you think that “it was revived briefly a few decades later”. Well, which is it?! You can’t seriously be basing on argument on this - if you were, it wouldn’t have taken you a week to ask me this. I said in my first post on the subject that I thought I remembered that they were revived later. I didn’t repeat that comment and contradicted it repeatedly, and that should’ve been a hint that I’d figured out I was wrong. > [@](#): > > the Illuminati was not banned in Italy. The fact that they were not banned is not evidence they still existed after the bulk of the organization was suppressed. A much simpler conclusion is that they fell apart after the ban. > [@](#): > > There is evidence that the Illuminati was banned in Bavaria in 1785 and that the Illuminati was revived a few decades later in Italy. You must’ve accidentally hit “Submit” before the part where you posted the evidence they still existed in Italy, the evidence for the NWO, and the evidence that ties them together. I assume you’ll be posting that in a minute. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/264 "2012-06-15T18:20:08Z")
But the Illuminati who became the NWO are not the same Illuminati who were banned, but rather another group who adopted the name of the Illuminati to hide their actual origins as the New World Order. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/265 "2012-06-15T19:30:49Z")
It was the 18th-century version of Identity Theft. Damn… they _are_ good! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/266 "2012-06-16T06:58:19Z")
Probably because CTs are proposed and defended by people who are incapable of putting together a rational thought, seeing all opposing evidence as proof that the “conspiracy” was successful. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/267 "2012-06-16T11:30:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The fact that they were not banned is not evidence they still existed after the bulk of the organization was suppressed in Bavaria. > [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > There are a number of events out there that I think prove that the US govt had manipulated events for its own good Because there are a number of [events](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories#Coups_d.27.C3.A9tat) out there that prove that the US government had manipulated events for its own good, there are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated [governments](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories#New_World_Order) for its own ends. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/268 "2012-06-16T15:36:41Z")
Why do we flat out dismiss the idea that governments have manipulated the Illuminati for their own ends? Such a convenient scapegoat. You have to admit that it’s possible, or else prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/269 "2012-06-16T17:56:58Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > in Bavaria. > > Because there are a number of [events](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories#Coups_d.27.C3.A9tat) out there that prove that the US government had manipulated events for its own good, there are a number of events out there that I think prove that the Illuminati had manipulated [governments](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories#New_World_Order) for its own ends. Uh, no, many of those events actually make the situations worse for the rulers of the day, not to mention that for several of them there is plenty of evidence that those conspiracies are based on retarded ideas (like the Clinton body count) Just looking at history I do remember that there is evidence that the assassin of Archduke Ferdinand that precipitated WWI was helped by the local secret intelligence in Sarajevo, and yet the results are with us to this day, the rulers of the day lost power and even the winners of the wars of the 20th century are now having trouble keeping everything together. Point being is that all glory is fleeting. The idea that a single group can influence all important events to a goal that benefits them forever ignores that even dynasties die out. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/270 "2012-06-16T18:38:35Z")
_ **absolutely true story follows** _ Exactly 29 minutes after I last posted, I was driving down the Interstate\* when I saw _two unmarked black helicopters_ passing overhead. Not only that, there were _chemtrails_ in the sky at the time. Coincidence? I think not. \*not safe to provide the exact location. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/271 "2012-06-16T19:41:59Z")
29 minutes? 29 minutes is \*1740 \*seconds, and 1740 was only 8 years before Adam Weishaupt was born! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/272 "2012-06-16T21:48:06Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*not safe to provide the exact location. Jack, don’t play dumb. The Illuminati[sup]tm[/sup] brand fillings in your teeth already let us track you by GPS, among other things. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/273 "2012-06-17T02:08:45Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It is possible that there is a conspiracy involving the development of weapons technologies (Manhattan Project). One example is HAARP. :rolleyes: [Really?](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/HAARP) > [@](#): > > The **High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP)** is a scientific research program designed to study the ionosphere of the earth and its effects on communication. HAARP is essentially a large ELF radio wave generator in Alaska funded by the Department of Defense in conjunction with the University of Alaska. It was started in 1993 and is scheduled to run at least 20 years. > > Some scientists criticized HAARP, since they worried that a similar device using more energy could be used as a weapon and that the true purpose of the experiment has not been fully revealed. It has also been criticized as a boondoggle costing many times more than its initial budget. But mostly, HAARP is a popular target for conspiracy theorists who believe that ELFs can be used for mind control and weather control - it’s even been blamed for the 2008 Chinese, 2010 Haitian and March 2011 Japanese earthquakes. > > Its attraction to conspiracists, its overextended budget and its sweeping scope make HAARP very similar to the Large Hadron Collider. > [@Kozmik](#): > > That Jesus had a wife and had children is possible and there could be a conspiracy around this possibility. Not a 2,000-year-old conspiracy, there couldn’t. And [the only known real one turned out to be a hoax.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Priory_of_Sion) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/274 "2012-06-17T02:13:53Z")
> [@Veneriable\_Slacks](#): > > Yes, CT’s are very scary indeed for the masses. Human sheople are genetically geared for following what “authority” says along with staying inside their comfort zones. In 1st grade, I refused to play checkers on the black squares, and would try to convince others to play on the red squares. Reactions varied from confusion to shaking in fear over breaking the rule of playing on the black squares. > > I shudder to think what aliens must say about us humans when they email back to their mother planet. [Do not wake the sheeple.](http://xkcd.com/1013/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/275 "2012-06-17T02:17:14Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Orwell comes to mind. Orwell was not a conspiracy theorist and had nothing good to say about such. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/276 "2012-06-17T02:20:35Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > From Wikipedia, [List of conspiracy theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories): > > New World Order - **possible** > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But why does anybody have anything **against** it?! Serious question. Anything that might eventually produce a real world government falls under the heading of “best-case scenario.” > [@Kozmik](#): > > Because it is a conspiracy. Glib answer. A full and considered answer forthcoming. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/277 "2012-06-17T03:09:30Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just looking at history I do remember that there is evidence that the assassin of Archduke Ferdinand that precipitated WWI was helped by the local secret intelligence in Sarajevo, and yet the results are with us to this day, the rulers of the day lost power and even the winners of the wars of the 20th century are now having trouble keeping everything together. Point being is that all glory is fleeting. The idea that a single group can influence all important events to a goal that benefits them forever ignores that even dynasties die out. From the 1994 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 29, Page 961: > [@](#): > > With Serbia already much aggrandized by the two Balkan Wars (1912-13, 1913), Serbian nationalists turned their attention back to the idea of “liberating” the South Slavs of Austria-Hungary. Colonel Dragutin Dimitrijevic, head of Serbia’s military intelligence, was also, under the alias “Apis”, head of the secret society Union or Death, pledged to the pursuit of this pan-Serbian ambition. Believing that the Serbs’ cause would be served by the death of the Austrian archduke Francis Ferdinand, heir presumptive to the Austrian emperor, Francis Joseph, and learning that the Archduke was about to visit Bosnia on a tour of military inspection, Apis plotted his assassination. So here we have Colonel Dimitrijevic head of Serbia’s military intelligence and also head of the secret society Union or Death plotting the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Colonel Dimitrijevic does not carry out the assassination - Gavrillo Princip does that - but from his unique position he is able to know the details about the Archduke that allow the assassination to be successful. And his alias is Apis. I know at least one other secret society that uses aliases. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Still waiting. Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/278 "2012-06-17T03:26:14Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > From the 1994 Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 29, Page 961: > > So here we have Colonel Dimitrijevic head of Serbia’s military intelligence and also head of the secret society Union or Death plotting the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. Colonel Dimitrijevic does not carry out the assassination - Gavrillo Princip does that - but from his unique position he is able to know the details about the Archduke that allow the assassination to be successful. > > And his alias is Apis. I know at least one other secret society that uses aliases. > Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks. And you just repeated what I said, minus the observation that they did not endure nor got what they wanted, Serbia had even less independence after the wars and then they had to endure Slobodan Miloševic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/279 "2012-06-17T04:21:43Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Other than the assassinations and the wars and the like, they are a nice group of folks. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/280 "2012-06-17T13:43:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Jack, don’t play dumb. > The Illuminati[sup]tm[/sup] brand fillings in your teeth already let us track you by GPS, among other things. Your naivete astounds me. Non-sheeple have already had their horribly toxic amalgam fillings [removed](http://www.naturalnews.com/007851.html) by trustworthy Biological Dentists. And the recommended twice-weekly bentonite clay detox baths are known to block GPS rays. [Ron Paul in 2012!!!](http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?293010-Please-tell-me-your-story-about-amalgam-fillings.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=15)