# Why do we flat out reject CT's? \[Conspiracy Theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841 "2012-06-02T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/301 "2012-06-20T22:46:36Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > At [the highest level](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294), they are neither powerful nor competent. So, based on the juxtaposition of this statement and the one to which you linked, someone totally unknown to the entire world, who is neither intelligent nor competent, has managed to acquire the power to direct all the world’s activities, yet remain totally hidden from everyone including his (or her?) minions, despite the incompetence that he has displayed. With that level of brilliant logic, I am beginning to see just why and how you have been holding on to your beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/302 "2012-06-20T22:47:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > At [the highest level](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294), they are neither powerful nor competent. Your post is your cite. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/303 "2012-06-20T23:37:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > someone totally unknown to the entire world, who is neither intelligent nor competent, has managed to acquire the power to direct all the world’s activities, yet remain totally hidden from everyone including his (or her?) minions, despite the incompetence that he has displayed. Feigned incompetence. And I wasn’t referring to the “incompetence that _he_ has displayed”. I linked to a post that stated that there are “powerful men that are also incompetent”. To the highest level, **they** - “powerful men that are also incompetent” - are neither powerful nor competent. Obligitory quote from _Easy A_: > [@](#): > > Olive: So it’s his choice that he’s a fourth year senior who can’t pass any test he takes? > Marianne: No, silly. His. His, with a capital H. If God wanted him to graduate than God would have given him the right answers. Remember the royal we? Something like that. You know how there are folks in Montana who believe that “they” have all the power and all the wealth and that “they” are doing this and that. “They” is singular not plural. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/304 "2012-06-21T00:19:16Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Gavrillo Princip was the assassin. Dragutin Dimitrijevic was the plotter. Who do you suppose was behind the plotter? When I checked the history it is clear that there is no need for any other. Nor there is any good evidence for someone else. > [@Kozmik](#): > > At [the highest level](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294), they are neither powerful nor competent. Once again, no evidence of that. And once again, as it seems you are missing the point, this kind of conspiracy theory is like the ones from the past that told many that sinister forces were behind the failure of a nation, while there is stability those theories only harm very few, but once chaos comes they are used by demagogues to control the population to do their bidding. Just as many in Europe used the fake protocols of Zion, what I see is that with the also fake Illuminati theory is that current and future demagogues will give the title of “Illuminati” to any members of an elite that the demagogue considers them to be the enemy. That path, under unfortunate conditions that are not so farfetched to see in the future, leads to the worst acts that humanity can offer. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/305 "2012-06-21T00:45:18Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > And I wasn’t referring to the “incompetence that _he_ has displayed”. I linked to a post that stated that there are “powerful men that are also incompetent”. To the highest level, **they** - “powerful men that are also incompetent” - are neither powerful nor competent. But your link ponted to this mysterious, unnamed character as the highest level. Now you are saying that your link meant something different than what you posted. That is OK. Your whole need to see Conspiracy is just silly, anyway. You never did say why you have such a need to believe this nonsense. However, I suspect that we have actually reached the end: you just have an odd need to believe that someone, somewhere is controlling the world–and using an extinct bunch of philosophers, who never had any power when they were alive, to do it. If it makes you happy, I guess you aren’t hurting much more than the bandwidth sucked up to continue this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/306 "2012-06-21T01:01:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just as many in Europe used the fake protocols of Zion, what I see is that with the also fake Illuminati theory is that current and future demagogues will give the title of “Illuminati” to any members of an elite that the demagogue considers them to be the enemy. That path, under unfortunate conditions that are not so farfetched to see in the future, leads to the worst acts that humanity can offer. Did you notice what I said in [the post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15189221&postcount=298) about propaganda for the propagandists? You know what propaganda for the people is obviously. It is not so obvious, though, what propaganda for the propagandists would be. I’ll give you a hint: At the highest level it is not [1%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25), it is one person. And what do they - _the_ “Illuminati” - think of current (and future and past) demagogues (and of the 1% and of the 99%)? Who is the enemy? Who indeed? _Illuminati, c’est moi._ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/307 "2012-06-21T01:29:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Did you notice what I said in [the post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15189221&postcount=298) about propaganda for the propagandists? You know what propaganda for the people is obviously. It is not so obvious, though, what propaganda for the propagandists would be. I’ll give you a hint: At the highest level it is not [1%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_the_99%25), it is one person. > > And what do they - _the_ “Illuminati” - think of current (and future and past) demagogues (and of the 1% and of the 99%)? > > Who is the enemy? Who indeed? > _Illuminati, c’est moi._ No evidence at all of what you are claiming there about the Illuminati. Meh, you are just like a follower of Discordianism then > **[Discordianism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism)** > > Discordianism is a belief system based around Eris, the Greek goddess of strife and discord, and variously defined as a religion, new religious movement, virtual religion, or act of social commentary; though prior to 2005, some sources categorized it as a parody religion. It was founded after the 1963 publication of its holy book, Principia Discordia, written by Greg Hill with Kerry Wendell Thornley, the two working under the pseudonyms Malaclypse the Younger and Omar Khayyam David Chidester co... > **[Robert Anton Wilson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Anton_Wilson#The_Illuminatus.21_Trilogy)** > > Robert Anton Wilson (born Robert Edward Wilson; January 18, 1932 – January 11, 2007) was an American writer, futurist, psychologist, and self-described agnostic mystic. Recognized within Discordianism as an Episkopos, pope and saint, Wilson helped publicize Discordianism through his writings and interviews. In 1999 he described his work as an "attempt to break down conditioned associations, to look at the world in a new way, with many models recognized as models or maps, and no one model In add... > [@](#): > > Among Wilson’s 35 books,[10] and many other works, perhaps his best-known volumes remain the cult classic series[11] The Illuminatus! Trilogy (1975), co-authored with Robert Shea. Advertised as “a fairy tale for paranoids,” Wilson would be proud, but the Illuminati remains a fairytale nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/308 "2012-06-21T01:34:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > and using an extinct bunch of philosophers, who never had any power when they were alive, to do it. Demagogues too. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/309 "2012-06-21T12:40:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am curious as to why you even bother believing this sort of thing. It’s not exactly a belief: > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Meh, you are just like a follower of Discordianism then > [@GIGObuster](#): > > No evidence at all of what you are claiming there about the Illuminati. Let’s look at the evidence: > [@Stratocaster](#): > > I don’t accept a fantastic assertion without evidence. Neither do I. > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure who you’re asking, but yes, the September 11th attacks - the real attacks, not the ‘Israel did it/Bush let it happen/the buildings were full of thermite and the planes carried missiles’ nonsense - were the result of a conspiracy. It’s not this. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I do reject them because of the big elephant in the room, besides not having evidence beyond a local plot, when I look at history blown up conspiracy theories like that are the first propaganda tool for demagogues to take power, like in Germany when it became gospel that someone did back-stab them after the first world war, guess who they blamed as the ones that controlled everything (and the banks)? Or that. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just as many in Europe used the fake protocols of Zion, what I see is that with the also fake Illuminati theory is that current and future demagogues will give the title of “Illuminati” to any members of an elite that the demagogue considers them to be the enemy. That path, under unfortunate conditions that are not so farfetched to see in the future, leads to the worst acts that humanity can offer. It’s something like this. Let’s analyze **GIGObuster** ’s significant post. **GIGObuster** refers to “current and future demagogues”. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15189786#post15189786) post I asked - What do they - _the_ “Illuminati” - think of current (and future and past) demagogues (and of the 1% and of the 99%)? Then **GIGObuster** refers to “the title of ‘Illuminati’”. In [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294) post I stated - At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design. Manipulating the “elite” and manipulating “the demagouge” and manipulating everyone. Someone whose _absence_ would be noticed. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/310 "2012-06-21T13:15:38Z")
Again, “evidence of X” does not mean your “evidence” is actually “evidence of X,” let alone real evidence at all. You do _not_ have “evidence of the Illuminati.” All the evidence is consistent with no Illuminati existing at all because everything can be explained in terms of things that we _do_ know and have evidence for. You’re consistently ignoring the notion that _ **even if the Illuminati existed, they are doing a shitty job because their impact is indistinguishable from no impact at all.** _ It’s an important point and you’ve been dodging it this entire thread. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/311 "2012-06-21T13:24:04Z")
Sorry **Kozmik** , but I can’t read this thread anymore. It is no longer funny. You have made me very concerned for you, and I hope you have spoken with mental health professionals to examine why you feel the need to believe this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/312 "2012-06-21T13:43:39Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Sorry **Kozmik** , but I can’t read this thread anymore. It is no longer funny. > You have made me very concerned for you, and I hope you have spoken with mental health professionals to examine why you feel the need to believe this nonsense. But would you call belief in God nonsense? What about someone with a belief in a higher power? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/313 "2012-06-21T14:05:08Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > But would you call belief in God nonsense? What about someone with a belief in a higher power? Please stick to the topic. You’ve been avoiding questions and playing coy for several pages. If this continues the thread will probably be locked soon. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/314 "2012-06-21T14:13:29Z")
I’ll repeat it so you can’t ignore it/pretend you didn’t see it, Kozmik: > [@](#): > > Again, “evidence of X” does not mean your “evidence” is actually “evidence of X,” let alone real evidence at all. > > You do _not_ have “evidence of the Illuminati.” All the evidence is consistent with no Illuminati existing at all because everything can be explained in terms of things that we _do_ know and have evidence for. > > You’re consistently ignoring the notion that even if the Illuminati existed, they are doing a shitty job because their impact is indistinguishable from no impact at all. It’s an important point and you’ve been dodging it this entire thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/315 "2012-06-21T14:21:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Please stick to the topic. You’ve been avoiding questions and playing coy for several pages. If this continues the thread will probably be locked soon. Ok. I’m sorry. I replied to **DrFidelius** ’s with something off topic about God because his post really offended me and I wanted to tell him that people who believe in God do not need to speak with mental health professionals about that belief and, likewise, people who believe in a higher power or the Illuminati do not need to speak with mental health professionals about those beliefs either. I won’t mention anything in this thread about God again. I should have ignored his post, but I didn’t. Again, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/316 "2012-06-21T14:42:47Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > I’ll repeat it so you can’t ignore it/pretend you didn’t see it, Kozmik I won’t ignore _your_ post: > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > _ **even if the Illuminati existed, they are doing a shitty job because their impact is indistinguishable from no impact at all.** _ It’s an important point Indeed. However, it is not always the case: > [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not sure who you’re asking, but yes, the September 11th attacks - the real attacks, not the ‘Israel did it/Bush let it happen/the buildings were full of thermite and the planes carried missiles’ nonsense - were the result of a conspiracy. Their impact - the real attacks, not the ‘Israel did it/Bush let it happen/the buildings were full of thermite and the planes carried missiles’ nonsense - is _not_ indistinguishable from no impact at all - - the real attacks. I believe: 1. [The September 11th attacks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15161582&postcount=201) were the result of a conspiracy. 2. [At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294) ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/317 "2012-06-21T14:49:08Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Their impact - the real attacks, not the ‘Israel did it/Bush let it happen/the buildings were full of thermite and the planes carried missiles’ nonsense - is _not_ indistinguishable from no impact at all - - the real attacks. I think you misunderstand what I mean by impact. Of course the real attacks had impact. I’m talking about, for instance, the guys out there who think the buildings were loaded with thermite or that Bush let it happen, etc. All of those paranoid theories are indistinguishable from nothing at all, because we can explain the real attacks without invoking stuff like thermite or Bush coverups or whatever such nonsense. Same applies to the Illuminati. The _analogy_ here is like you’re arguing that there’s evidence the buildings were loaded with thermite even though we don’t need thermite to explain the attacks or how things went down. It’s like you’re saying “here’s evidence of thermite!” when your “evidence” is not evidence of thermite at all but is best explained via other means which are far more consistent and likely. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/318 "2012-06-21T15:00:28Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > because we can explain the real attacks without invoking stuff like thermite or Bush coverups or whatever such nonsense. Right. > [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Same applies to the Illuminati. How? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/319 "2012-06-21T15:04:12Z")
Same answer applies to both cases: We don’t need thermite/Illuminati/etc to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/320 "2012-06-21T15:08:23Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > We don’t need thermite/Illuminati/etc to explain. We don’t need thermite to explain September 11, 2001 and we don’t the Illuminati to explain - what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=17)