# Why do we flat out reject CT's? \[Conspiracy Theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841 "2012-06-02T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/321 "2012-06-21T15:19:23Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > We don’t need thermite to explain September 11, 2001 and we don’t the Illuminati to explain - what? Can you just answer my questions regarding the mechanism for replacing the most powerful (but unknown) man in the world when the current one dies/retires? Is it a dynastic succession, a position kept within the family? Is there a group _above_ the most powerful man (MPM) who gives the replacement a call, “Hey, you’re up.”? How are the Illuminati notified? What if the new MPM has an agenda completely opposite of the prior holder - how does he make his agenda work without exerting any true influence? What if the MPM goes insane, or develops dementia - is there a process to remove him? Is this guy always a Westerner, or can he be a tribesman from a remote island, unaware of the greater world around him? Who will be the first Chinese MPM? How many Americans have been the MPM, or is this just a European thing? What is the training needed to be the MPM? To be honest, I’m kind of interested in the position… Anyway, I have lots of questions, so if you could go about answering them, that would be great. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/322 "2012-06-21T15:31:34Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > We don’t need thermite to explain September 11, 2001 and we don’t the Illuminati to explain - what? Exactly. What events do you need the Illuminati to explain? Can you point to something that happened that can not be explained by the existing evidence and requires a secretive cabal to explain? Until you have concrete evidence of _something_ like that, Occam’s Razor is going to work against you. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/323 "2012-06-21T15:52:50Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > We don’t need thermite to explain September 11, 2001 and we don’t the Illuminati to explain - what? That’s up to you – you’re the one claiming to believe in something. Put forth an example of something you think is good evidence of the Illuminati that can’t be better explained by things we already know about. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/324 "2012-06-21T16:09:56Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Can you just answer my questions regarding the mechanism for replacing the most powerful (but unknown) man in the world when the current one dies/retires? > > Is it a dynastic succession, a position kept within the family? Is there a group _above_ the most powerful man (MPM) who gives the replacement a call, “Hey, you’re up.”? How are the Illuminati notified? > > What if the new MPM has an agenda completely opposite of the prior holder - how does he make his agenda work without exerting any true influence? What if the MPM goes insane, or develops dementia - is there a process to remove him? Is this guy always a Westerner, or can he be a tribesman from a remote island, unaware of the greater world around him? Who will be the first Chinese MPM? How many Americans have been the MPM, or is this just a European thing? > > What is the training needed to be the MPM? To be honest, I’m kind of interested in the position… > > Anyway, I have lots of questions, so if you could go about answering them, that would be great. 🙂 I read an entertaining novel (title left out to limit spoilers, and because it’s not relevant to this discussion) which dealt with these issues. In the novel, a group in the mid-1800s developed a technology that gave them information they could use to manipulate events towards their own ends with a fair amount of success. All was well - at first: everybody had a general agreement about what future events were bad enough that they ought to take efforts to prevent them, etc. But of course, eventually they started to disagree among themselves - and how could they resolve those disagreements? There was no means of peacefully resolving those differences (you can’t take someone to court for misappropriating the common property of a secret conspiracy!). The organization split, with different branches taking on different goals - with the eventual further complication that other groups also independently discovered the technology that enabled meddling, and those groups also split up… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/325 "2012-06-21T16:49:20Z")
Yes, but that is a novel. I’m looking for a new career in _this_ world and I believe that I have the skill set and the temperament to be a truly _outstanding_ Most Powerful Man. So let’s keep the fantasy stuff out of this thread, please, and we’ll just stick to the cold, hard facts. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![furdmort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@furdmort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furdmort)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/326 "2012-06-21T18:56:05Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > But would you call belief in God nonsense? What about someone with a belief in a higher power? Yeah, I actually do call belief in a god nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/327 "2012-06-21T19:03:54Z")
> [@furdmort](#): > > Yeah, I actually do call belief in a god nonsense. Not in this thread, please. Let’s stick to discussions of conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![furdmort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@furdmort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furdmort)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/328 "2012-06-21T19:05:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > I won’t ignore _your_ post: > > Indeed. > > However, it is not always the case: > > Their impact - the real attacks, not the ‘Israel did it/Bush let it happen/the buildings were full of thermite and the planes carried missiles’ nonsense - is _not_ indistinguishable from no impact at all - - the real attacks. > > I believe: > > 1. [The September 11th attacks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15161582&postcount=201) were the result of a conspiracy. > 2. [At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294) [Sounds to me like this guy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_characters#The_Ruler_of_the_Universe) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/329 "2012-06-21T22:21:36Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Yes, but that is a novel. I’m looking for a new career in _this_ world and I believe that I have the skill set and the temperament to be a truly _outstanding_ Most Powerful Man. > > So let’s keep the fantasy stuff out of this thread, please, and we’ll just stick to the cold, hard facts. 😛 Fair enough… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/330 "2012-06-21T22:37:17Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > 1. [At the lowest level is governments, at a higher level is the Illuminati, and at the highest level is someone - known to no one - manipulating the Illuminati for their own design.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15188092&postcount=294) It’s turtles, all the way up? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/331 "2012-06-21T22:38:30Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > It’s turtles, all the way up? At the top, there’s Yertle ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/332 "2012-06-22T02:25:29Z")
> [@furdmort](#): > > [Sounds to me like this guy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy_characters#The_Ruler_of_the_Universe) [More like this guy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Claw) > [@Telemark](#): > > Exactly. What events do you need the Illuminati to explain? Can you point to something that happened that can not be explained by the existing evidence and requires a secretive cabal to explain? Until you have concrete evidence of _something_ like that, Occam’s Razor is going to work against you. I will answer your questions. Your two questions involves Occam’s Razor and are admittingly difficult to answer. > [@JohnT](#): > > Can you just answer my questions regarding the mechanism for replacing the most powerful (but unknown) man in the world when the current one dies/retires? > > Is it a dynastic succession, a position kept within the family? Is there a group _above_ the most powerful man (MPM) who gives the replacement a call, “Hey, you’re up.”? How are the Illuminati notified? > > What if the new MPM has an agenda completely opposite of the prior holder - how does he make his agenda work without exerting any true influence? What if the MPM goes insane, or develops dementia - is there a process to remove him? Is this guy always a Westerner, or can he be a tribesman from a remote island, unaware of the greater world around him? Who will be the first Chinese MPM? How many Americans have been the MPM, or is this just a European thing? > > What is the training needed to be the MPM? To be honest, I’m kind of interested in the position… > > Anyway, I have lots of questions, so if you could go about answering them, that would be great. 🙂 It could be anything. A blackout like the one in 2003 or a non-event that invited sabotage like Y2K. It could be a message ostensibly sent to an organization or to a person but intended for a successor. It could be something like how Juan Antonio Samaranch said [“Well done, Atlanta” and simply called the Games “most exceptional.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics#Criticisms_and_controversies) to close the Atlanta Olympics which broke the precedent of him calling each Olympics “the best Olympics ever” _a practice he resumed at the subsequent Games in Sydney in 2000_. _Someone_ perhaps suggested to someone to tell someone… to tell Juan Antonio Samaranch… If the new one has an agenda completely different than the previous one then he or she might have a slogan introduced such as “peace in our time” or “peace without victory” or something like that. Or they might have an agenda that has to wait until the US to have a population of a billion like China and India and then hint at only child culture and space colonies for the violators. Then there’s human cloning and who know what else. Is the guy always a Westerner? Who knows? Look at those kids in [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/7810203/Rare-photos-of-Kim-Jong-ils-youngest-son-Kim-Jong-un-released.html) picture. They had no idea that they had someone _close_ to the Illuminati as a classmate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/333 "2012-06-22T03:12:15Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Who controlled _them_? Who, the Jews? I don’t think anyone has ever managed it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/334 "2012-06-22T03:17:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Gavrillo Princip was the assassin. Dragutin Dimitrijevic was the plotter. Who do you suppose was behind the plotter? Nobody. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/335 "2012-06-22T03:19:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > And I wasn’t referring to the “incompetence that _he_ has displayed”. I linked to a post that stated that there are “powerful men that are also incompetent”. To the highest level, **they** - “powerful men that are also incompetent” - are neither powerful nor competent. Then why worry about them at all? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/336 "2012-06-22T03:24:34Z")
Actually, [there **is** a Conspiracy.](http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/classic/classics/X0003_botsg-intro.html) Its greatest strength is that it does not **know** it is a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/337 "2012-06-22T11:55:35Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It could be anything… It could be…It could be… _Someone_ perhaps suggested to someone to tell someone…If…Or they might have an agenda… who know what else…Who knows? Well, _I’m_ convinced. :dubious::(:rolleyes:😕:mad::eek: ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/338 "2012-06-22T12:53:39Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It could be anything. A blackout like the one in 2003 or a non-event that invited sabotage like Y2K. It could be a message ostensibly sent to an organization or to a person but intended for a successor. It could be something like how Juan Antonio Samaranch said [“Well done, Atlanta” and simply called the Games “most exceptional.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics#Criticisms_and_controversies) to close the Atlanta Olympics which broke the precedent of him calling each Olympics “the best Olympics ever” _a practice he resumed at the subsequent Games in Sydney in 2000_. Sorry to say, but you’re getting more confusing rather than illuminating. Let’s ignore the Olympics issue because, frankly, it sounds like rambling, and concentrate on a concrete event like the blackout in 2003. Do you believe that there’s anything unexplained about the cause or ramifications of it? All the evidence points to an overloaded and unprepared infrastructure and a series of human errors. There’s nothing that suggests a greater controlling power, and certainly no evidence to support it. You could say the exact same things about any public event, and that appears to be what you are doing. You’re looking for patterns, which is what human brains do. They are excellent at identifying patterns in large data sets. But they’re also pretty easy to confuse into seeing patterns where none exist. That is what you are doing, looking for patterns and trying to fit data into an overly complex and unsupported world view. Step back and you may see that no such controlling power is needed to explain anything. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/339 "2012-06-22T14:40:18Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > [More like this guy.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Claw) > > I will answer your questions. Your two questions involves Occam’s Razor and are admittingly difficult to answer. > > It could be anything. A blackout like the one in 2003 or a non-event that invited sabotage like Y2K. It could be a message ostensibly sent to an organization or to a person but intended for a successor. It could be something like how Juan Antonio Samaranch said [“Well done, Atlanta” and simply called the Games “most exceptional.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics#Criticisms_and_controversies) to close the Atlanta Olympics which broke the precedent of him calling each Olympics “the best Olympics ever” _a practice he resumed at the subsequent Games in Sydney in 2000_. > > _Someone_ perhaps suggested to someone to tell someone… to tell Juan Antonio Samaranch… > > If the new one has an agenda completely different than the previous one then he or she might have a slogan introduced such as “peace in our time” or “peace without victory” or something like that. Or they might have an agenda that has to wait until the US to have a population of a billion like China and India and then hint at only child culture and space colonies for the violators. Then there’s human cloning and who know what else. > > Is the guy always a Westerner? Who knows? Look at those kids in [this](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/7810203/Rare-photos-of-Kim-Jong-ils-youngest-son-Kim-Jong-un-released.html) picture. They had no idea that they had someone _close_ to the Illuminati as a classmate. Well, shit. I was in Atlanta in '96 and apparently missed the call. I thought Juan Antonio Sonofabitch was just making a comment about the fact that the Atlanta games didn’t drive the city, state, and/or country into financial ruin (as the IOC did for Athens, Greece, a price the world is still paying today) because we commercialized the shit out of the Games and eked out a $10 million profit instead of a $4 billion loss, which he thinks is every host cities duty to withstand. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/340 "2012-06-22T14:53:16Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Sorry to say, but you’re getting more confusing rather than illuminating. And it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that it’s deliberate. **Kozmik** , please take pains to be clear about what you think it happening and why and what the real evidence is as opposed to making vague suggestions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=18)