# Why do we flat out reject CT's? \[Conspiracy Theories\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841 "2012-06-02T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/121 "2012-06-08T17:12:30Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > But then you have (some) people who reject CTs like the NWO because they claim (incorrectly) that the Illuminati is fictional. Since it hasn’t existed for some 200 years, the gist of the claim is true. The New World Order is nonsense. I’ve lost track- what is the point of this quibble? ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/122 "2012-06-08T17:39:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > the gist of the claim is true. How? The Illuminati is historical. It’s not fictional. It’s not like the Roswell UFO incident. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/123 "2012-06-08T17:45:09Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How? The Illuminati is historical. It’s not fictional. The Illuminati existed, but there’s no evidence that it’s anything like what you are claiming. There’s no evidence it lasted more than a decade. There’s no evidence that anything in recent years is connected to that tiny, ineffective group. Without that you’ve got the exact same support as folks that believe in Roswell. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/124 "2012-06-08T17:46:31Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How? The Illuminati is historical. Yes. It existed for a decade, was crippled by infighting, was crushed after 9 years and hasn’t been active in 200 years. The fact that it did exist for a little while doesn’t lend any credibility to the actual NWO claims, which are unsupported and preposterous even if there was at one point a group in Germany whose name is posthumously applied to some of the alleged conspirators. Abe Lincoln was real, but if anybody tells you he really hunted vampires, they’re insane. Same with the historical Illuminati and the fictional NWO. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/125 "2012-06-08T18:11:59Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > How? The Illuminati is historical. It’s not fictional. So what? The Knights Templar were real and Masons are real, but stories that the Masons were founded by Templars hiding from royal persecution are just made up nonsense. The Illuminati were (past tense) real–for nine years–and the story written about them twelve years after they were suppressed was made up nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/126 "2012-06-08T23:21:02Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > I would also like to add that a plane of this variety could easily be fitted with an air-to-air missile system that could launch a sidewinder or similar weapon to take out a passenger liner. No. That claim is not possible. It takes hundreds of air hours, and dozens of drop-tests, costing several hundreds of thousands of dollars per test, to get a missile qualified to _safely_ drop from an aircraft _designed_ to drop it.. Google “I shot myself down”, and only look at actual aviation sites. You’ll see _many_ accounts of test pilots who shot _themselves_ down, testing air-dropping of air-to-air ordinance. Even today, it takes actual, expensive testing, before a missile or other air ordinance can be used safely. If you seriously think someone can just strap on a Sidewinder to a Cessna, and it will work, you are seriously mistaken. Show me the dead Cessna pilots. And the shot-down planes. Then I might believe what you say actually happened. If you can’t show it, then it likely didn’t happen. If the testing didn’t happen, what you claim could not possibly have happened. That’s the way reality works. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/127 "2012-06-09T06:06:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Once an idea has already been shown to be loony, it then becomes a CT–and those we reject out of hand. By that criterion, the Roswell UFO incident would be a CT while the New World Order would not. > [@tomndebb](#): > > The Illuminati were (past tense) real–for nine years–and the story written about them twelve years after they were suppressed was made up nonsense. It’s _not_ loony to believe that the Illuminati were real; however, it is loony to believe that the Illuminati are real. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/128 "2012-06-09T10:39:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It’s _not_ loony to believe that the Illuminati were real; however, it is loony to believe that the Illuminati are real. :dubious: Yep. It is not loony to acknowledge that there really was an order of the Knights Templar, but it is loony to believe that they continue on, today, disguised as Masons. The fact that a group existed ar one time is no reason to believe that they continue to exist after we know that they have been disbanded. Of course, if one is predisposed to believe in CTs. . . . ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/129 "2012-06-09T14:34:25Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > By that criterion, the Roswell UFO incident would be a CT while the New World Order would not. The fact that the Illuminati existed 200 years ago is not enough to elevate the NWO stuff into a plausible theory. LBJ and the CIA and the mob were real and they existed in the '60s, but the theory they killed John F. Kennedy is most definitely a CT. You need a lot more evidence to move the NWO stuff into the realm of the plausible. There’s no factual connection between the group that went out of commission in the 1780s and the global NWO conspiracy theory. There isn’t even evidence the Illuminati existed in 1790. > [@](#): > > It’s _not_ loony to believe that the Illuminati were real; however, it is loony to believe that the Illuminati are real. :dubious: Exactly. Saying the theory is plausible because a historical group once had that name is like saying Dracula is real because Vlad the Impaler existed. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/130 "2012-06-09T17:00:20Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of course, if one is predisposed to believe in CTs. . . . From Wikipedia, [List of conspiracy theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conspiracy_theories): New World Order - **possible** Federal Reserve System - **possible** False flag operations - 9/11 – rejected Wars - FDR having full knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack – rejected Coup d’etat - Operation Ajax – **real** Assassinations - JFK – rejected Clinton body count - rejected by Snopes Barack Obama birth conspiracy theories - rejected by SDMB Anti-semetic conspiracy theories - The Protocols of the Elders of Zion – rejected as a forgery Armenian International Conspiracy - rejected “Babylon” - Haile Selassie did not die – rejected Eurabia - rejected Arab fascist axis - Martin Bormann did not die - rejected Baha’i - rejected Apocalyptic prophecies - rejected Bible conspiracy theory - Jesus had a wife – **possible** Catholicism as a veiled continuation of Babylonian paganism - rejected Suppression of technologies - **possible** Development of weapons technologies - Manhattan Project – **real** Weapons testing - **possible** Surveillance, espionage and intelligence agencies - **real** DTV transition - **possible** Medicine - AIDS was “invented” – rejected Drug legalization - hemp competing with pulp paper – rejected Diet - rejected Creation of diseases - AIDS is a man-made disease – rejected Water fluoridation - rejected Traditional, natural and alternative medicines – **possible** Peak oil - **possible** Real groups said to be involved in conspiracies - **possible** Alleged groups associated with conspiracy theories - rejected The Plan - rejected Extraterrestrials - Roswell UFO incident – rejected Evil aliens - reptilians – rejected Miscellaneous - rejected Moon landing conspiracy theories - rejected Given that the Manhattan Project was real and that Operation Ajax really did happen and that surveillance, espionage and intelligence agencies are real, could you explain to me why it is naive to believe that there is suppression of technologies and weapons testing and, specifically, DTV transition. Why is it naive to believe in conspiracies involving traditional, natural and alternative medicines and peak oil? Of all the beliefs some people have about Jesus, why do you find it hard to believe that Jesus had a wife and had children. > [@Marley23](#): > > Exactly. Saying the theory is plausible because a historical group once had that name is like saying Dracula is real because Vlad the Impaler existed. By that criterion, Majestic 12 would be implausible while the Illuminati would be plausible. Given that, conspiracies involving the Federal Reserve System and the New World Order are possible. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/131 "2012-06-09T17:18:41Z")
Well, shit. You had a _Wikipedia_ cite all along? Why didn’t you just say so? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/132 "2012-06-09T19:10:24Z")
Yup, that Wiki entry convinced me all right. It’s **possible** according to random strangers on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/133 "2012-06-09T19:50:20Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > By that criterion, Majestic 12 would be implausible while the Illuminati would be plausible. Given that, conspiracies involving the Federal Reserve System and the New World Order are possible. I don’t know where you are getting this from what I am posting. You suggested NWO conspiracies are “possible” because there was once a group called the Illuminati. I pointed out that that’s absurd because there’s no evidence connecting to the two groups. There was a Vlad Dracula, but that’s not evidence there was a vampire named Dracula. Abe Lincoln existed, but that’s not evidence he hunted vampires. The fact that the Illuminati existed in the 18th century is not evidence for the NWO. Their name is used in the NWO CT because they were a real historical group. It’s a detail from reality incorporated into a fictitious theory. If you’re going to say the NWO CT is plausible, you need evidence connecting the real Illuminati historical group to that conspiracy (not just say-so like “the Illuminati are part of the NWO”). Get it yet? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/134 "2012-06-09T23:14:55Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Given that the Manhattan Project was real and that Operation Ajax really did happen and that surveillance, espionage and intelligence agencies are real, could you explain to me why it is naive to believe that there is suppression of technologies and weapons testing and, specifically, DTV transition. Which of your examples represents conspiracies uncovered by dogged amateurs writing pamphlets and babbling frenetically to each other on the Internet? > [@](#): > > Why is it naive to believe in conspiracies involving traditional, natural and alternative medicines…? “Naive” is not the word I’d use to describe conspiracy theories involving traditional/natural/alternative medicine. “Nonsensical”, “moronic”, and “viciously stupid” fit the bill far better. These conspiracy theories all basically revolve around the idea that there are fantastically effective, 100% safe and cheap remedies for all diseases, but the Evil Medical Establishment/Big Pharma/Government/NWO is suppressing them in order to make money. Apparently nobody in those categories ever gets seriously ill or has friends and loved ones in need of these magical therapies, so to believe the conspiracy theories you must think that all these people are suicidal sociopaths. When you point this out to the conspiracy theorists, you’re typically met with sullen silence, after which they go right on babbling their bullshit. Nope, “naive” is not the word I’d use to describe them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/135 "2012-06-10T01:49:38Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Barack Obama birth conspiracy theories - rejected by SDMB Ah, no; even big time right wingers like Bill O’Reilly and Ann Coulter think that the ones following that theory are cranks. It has been rejected even by right wingers that are just a little bit over the average IQ. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/136 "2012-06-10T02:02:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Which of your examples represents conspiracies uncovered by dogged amateurs writing pamphlets and babbling frenetically to each other on the Internet?“Naive” is not the word I’d use to describe conspiracy theories involving traditional/natural/alternative medicine. “Nonsensical”, “moronic”, and “viciously stupid” fit the bill far better. > > These conspiracy theories all basically revolve around the idea that there are fantastically effective, 100% safe and cheap remedies for all diseases, but the Evil Medical Establishment/Big Pharma/Government/NWO is suppressing them in order to make money. Apparently nobody in those categories ever gets seriously ill or has friends and loved ones in need of these magical therapies, so to believe the conspiracy theories you must think that all these people are suicidal sociopaths. When you point this out to the conspiracy theorists, you’re typically met with sullen silence, after which they go right on babbling their bullshit. > > Nope, “naive” is not the word I’d use to describe them. I used that argument on a fitness/nutrition board and the person came right back with “they’re keeping the cures within their inner circle.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/137 "2012-06-10T02:32:21Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > I used that argument on a fitness/nutrition board and the person came right back with “they’re keeping the cures within their inner circle.” > :rolleyes: It’s not as far fetched as you think. When people “in the know” (heads of pharmaceutical companies, 27th-level Masons, air traffic controllers, and the like) get sick, it’s entirely possible that they are availing themselves of holistic cures in complete and total secrecy. I mean, the stuff comes right out of the tap. No one would suspect a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/138 "2012-06-10T03:42:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The fact that the Illuminati existed in the 18th century is not evidence for the NWO. It’s not a stretch to go from the Illuminati existed in the 18th century to the Illuminati existed in the 19th and 20th century. The Illuminati supposedly explains the history and events of the 19th and 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/139 "2012-06-10T03:51:28Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > It’s not a stretch to go from the Illuminati existed in the 18th century to the Illuminati existed in the 19th and 20th century. It is when there’s no evidence it’s true. > [@](#): > > The Illuminati supposedly explains the history and events of the 19th and 20th century. Not without evidence it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841/140 "2012-06-10T05:24:37Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and most CTs don’t even have marginal proofs, but instead rely on wild speculation and conjecture, in most cases using ignorance or lies, out right or through omission and everything in between. THAT is what gets ridiculed or dismissed around here. If you have some examples of CTs you (the OP) feel are valid pr worth a second look then by all means let’s see them. To be sure, conspiracies do happen in real life. Look at the Foed Pinto for example…or Iran-Contra. The difference is both these conspiracies actually happened, and there is real hard evidence concerning them…which is why they aren’t CTs, but instead examples of real conspiracies. > > -XT To be fair, though, some conspiracies would never get found without people who suspected that they existed, and looked for evidence of their existence. That’s true of science, too. All the earliest researchers in the hard sciences were clueless fools who, in some cases, killed (or nearly killed) themselves through sheer ignorance of the dangerous nature of their work. Early chemists didn’t even wear _eye_ protection, for heaven’s sake. ROFL Think about it, though…we wouldn’t have modern science without people with the brains and desire to do the dangerous early experiments. So don’t hate people who believe crazy things. Hate the ones who won’t change their minds when given good evidence, if you have to hate someone. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-flat-out-reject-cts-conspiracy-theories/623841.md?page=8)