# Why do we generally reverse Japanese names, but keep Chinese/Korean name order? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 24, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747 "2011-01-24T05:26:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/41 "2011-01-26T16:30:29Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I’ll note we’re not always consistent with this for Chinese or Korean names, either. > > It’s not the most pleasant example, but the Virginia Tech shooter was usually listed as “Seung-Hui Cho” in the media in the weeks following the massacre, but “Cho” would be his family name. Actually, as I remember it, the initial reports often used “Cho Seung-Hui,” but as time went on, the order was switched to the customary American way, both because that was his own habit and because he was American. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/42 "2011-01-26T16:30:51Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > … The only reason Chinese and Korean names sound odd reversed is that we’re used to them not reversed. **If the custom had been to reverse them, that would sound natural**. … that doesn’t explain why it isn’t odd for Japanese names, because i could say the same for western names - Brad Pitt / Pitt Brad vs Hayao Miyazaki / Miyazaki Hayao. (bolding mine) on preview: are you saying some Japanese consider how names would sound both ways before they name their babies? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/43 "2011-01-26T16:38:02Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > are you saying some Japanese consider how names would sound both ways before they name their babies? I think the point is that Japanese and Westerners are already used to the idea that they might reverse the order of their names when dealing with a Westerner. ---
**Author:** ![Chicken\_Fingers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Chicken\_Fingers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicken_Fingers)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/44 "2011-01-26T17:04:57Z")
Vietnamese naming conventions follow the order of last name, middle name, first name. The middle name is often important to identify the particular branch of a family, which makes sense if you notice how many Vietnamese share the same last names. They throw in extra names too, and everyone seems to have a random childhood nickname. So confusing. After many years I still can’t quite put names to a lot of my in-laws. If Ho Chi Minh had moved to the U.S. and Americanized himself, he’d have gone around saying, “Howdy, I’m Minh Ho.” ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/45 "2011-01-26T18:55:04Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > that doesn’t explain why it isn’t odd for Japanese names, because i could say the same for western names - Brad Pitt / Pitt Brad vs Hayao Miyazaki / Miyazaki Hayao. (bolding mine) > > on preview: are you saying some Japanese consider how names would sound both ways before they name their babies? No, your original point was comparing Japanese to Chinese and Korean names and saying that Japanese names don’t sound odd when reversed, but Chinese and Korean names do. The only reason the later sounds odd is that the reversal isn’t usually done. We’re used to seeing Chinese and Korean names in the native order and seeing Japanese reversed. If the custom had been that Japanese kept their native order and the Koreans and Chinese reversed theirs, then that would sound natural. All said sounding “odd” is subjective. Who are you saying it sounds or doesn’t sound odd to? Japanese are used to reversing their names when speaking English, but they never reverse it in Japanese, and doing so would sound extremely strange. Using the Western order is not natural for them, and is learned. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/46 "2011-01-27T03:59:47Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > (Hungarians and French, off the top of my head, also often write their names with the family name first.) It seems to me that Hungarians normally use the family name first, like Japanese. The French certainly do not. What they do is list the family name first for official purposes (forms and such) somewhat more frequently than is done in English speaking countries (or for that matter in Quebec), but the intent is no different from me listing my name as “MCL, Matthew” on a form or list. Everyone still understands that the given names are normally first. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/47 "2011-01-27T10:08:33Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Actually, you’re mistaken about what I have been informed of and what I haven’t. Some portion of Hispanic names do work that way, and when the subject under discussion is the names of people with such names _in a conversation about what kind of names people have_, it would not be “way too complicated” to use terms as I have used them. It doesn’t matter that these rules aren’t universal in Hispanic cultures – indeed, it proves my point, because in order to distinguish among the different rules that people adhere to, one must have sufficiently precise terms in order to talk about them. Your wording would be offensive to some of the people who do not follow those rules; namely, to those who can not. It is not a wording we would ever use, both because we would rather not offend whomever we are adressing and because the fact that not everybody uses that pattern makes it imprecise, same as “Ameringlish” patterns can’t deal with my firstname (which. Is. Not. Maria!). Our own patterning does, amazingly enough, work well with our situation. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/48 "2011-01-27T10:36:22Z")
2 reasons: 1. Westerners can understand the difference between a Japanese first name and family name. 2. But they are too stupid and don’t care enough to figure out which is which for Korean names. Korean names come in 2 parts (first name, family name) but the first name has 2 words. Korean family names are generally Kim, Lee/Yi, Jung/Chung, or Park/Pak. However, they can also be a Chinese character, like Ho/Oh, Lim, etc. All of these short words scare and confuse Westerners, so they don’t know which order to put them in. For example: Chan Ho Park. If a Westerner actually cared, they could figure out that Park is the family name, and Chan Ho must be the first name, and thus should be placed like this in Western style: Chan Ho Park Park, Chan Ho Koreans do not have middle names. However, if you ask them, they will often state the 2nd half of their first name is their middle name (because it is in the middle, not because it is a middle name) and so you see stupid stuff like: Park, Chan H. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/49 "2011-01-27T11:24:14Z")
**Nava** , actually, the term “paternal last name” and “maternal last name” are used in legal documents, or documents that require both last names (including exams, certificates, applications, etc.) in other places (I know for a fact this is the case in Puerto Rico). The terms “first last name” and “second last name” are not used, although I wish that were the case. I do know people who have their mom’s last name as their first last name. I guess they ignore the “paternal” and “maternal” and just write the legal name they have in the order they have it, with the maternal last name in the “paternal” space. And I did learn it as “apellido paterno” and “apellido materno”. That’s the “standard” in many (Spanish-speaking) places, even though the order can vary (and I want it to vary, since I want to pass on my first last name). ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/50 "2011-01-27T11:43:15Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Korean names come in 2 parts (first name, family name) but the first name has 2 words. Korean family names are generally Kim, Lee/Yi, Jung/Chung, or Park/Pak. However, they can also be a Chinese character, like Ho/Oh, Lim, etc. All Korean family names are Chinese characters. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/51 "2011-01-27T11:45:36Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > And I did learn it as “apellido paterno” and “apellido materno”. That’s the “standard” in many (Spanish-speaking) places, even though the order can vary (and I want it to vary, since I want to pass on my first last name). I stand corrected then. In Spain I’ve usually seen “Nombre” and “Apellidos” or “Nombre”, “Primer Apellido” and “Segundo Apellido”; the Nombre accepts as many words as you wish, and so do any Apellidos (whether there are two slots or one). ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/52 "2011-01-27T11:55:52Z")
I repeat, I do wish it were the way you said, if only because it would make it less confusing/less sexist(?) to address the last names that way, at least in terms of writing them out in documents and papers. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/53 "2011-01-27T11:59:57Z")
Plus the “Apellido paterno” “apellido materno” leads to masking reality when it’s not true, since people don’t get to describe their own situation; sort of like using “African-American” to mean “black” leads to African-Africans saying “but I am not! If I was American, I wouldn’t be trying to get a job in MacDonalds, I have a PhD!” “I know, but it doesn’t actually mean ‘african-american’, it means black” “so why don’t they say black?” “long story…” (\<— actual conversation) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/54 "2011-01-27T16:37:05Z")
[quote=“Superhal, post:48, topic:568747”] 2 reasons: 1. Westerners can understand the difference between a Japanese first name and family name. [/QUOTEr] I would be surprised if more than 10 or 20% of Americans can do this. It’s not like most Americans can and not sure why you posit this is the case? > [@Superhal](#): > > 1. But they are too stupid and don’t care enough to figure out which is which for Korean names. > > Korean family names are generally Kim, Lee/Yi, Jung/Chung, or Park/Pak. However, they can also be a Chinese character, like Ho/Oh, Lim, etc. _ahem_, your example could easily be any number of Chinese from different countries that use non-standard romanization such as Malaysia. Yi could be a standard chinese pinyin romanization. I work in a multinational corporation, speak Chinese fluently and basic Japanese. By looking at name plates in my hallway, it is often unclear to me who is Chinese versus Korean. Worse, it is unclear which is the family name as some people make their nameplates in the last name first name style, and some make their nameplates in the American first name last name style. So, it’s not a “stupidity” thing thankyouverymuch. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/55 "2011-01-28T00:56:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > I stand corrected then. In Spain I’ve usually seen “Nombre” and “Apellidos” or “Nombre”, “Primer Apellido” and “Segundo Apellido”; the Nombre accepts as many words as you wish, and so do any Apellidos (whether there are two slots or one). You still sometimes see this in Spain; my favourite was a webform that not only said Apellido Paterno and Apellido Materno, but absolutely insisted that everyone had to have one of each, as a consequence of which no doubt floating around in some dusty server is a reference to **Matt Mcl Momsmaidenname**. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/56 "2011-01-28T16:43:09Z")
A search on Japanese message boards on this question shows that : 1. Japanese want to know this answer, too. 2. No one really knows. 3. Stale jokes here. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/57 "2011-01-28T20:48:43Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Actually, depending on the age they might use Rocky Wang, Rambo Li or even Stallone Cao. (I swear that every class of English I tought in Taiwan in the early 80’s always sported at least one Rocky or Rambo, leading to calling people Rocky One, Rocky Two, etc. rotypically speaking, most Rocky’s weighed no more than 120 pounds, were pale, sported thick glasses and a bad haircut. :eek:). One kid’s English school had a few teachers that would name the incoming class after a TV show like Little Rascals, Happy Days, etc. You mean Locky and Lambo ? 🙂 Seriously, I’m having an awful time listing alphabetically the names of Chinese authors in bibliographical references. Have to guess which is first, middle or last of their multi-parts names. e.g. CHEN Jin-Ming; Jing-Yuan WANG; Liu XING; Yan-Wen ZHANG & Qing-Feng WANG, 2004. (Caps and semi-colons are mine to make it easier. First author has last name first and co-authors given names first in many scientific periodicals). ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/58 "2011-01-29T04:33:08Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > Seriously, I’m having an awful time listing alphabetically the names of Chinese authors in bibliographical references. Have to guess which is first, middle or last of their multi-parts names. > > e.g. > CHEN Jin-Ming; Jing-Yuan WANG; Liu XING; Yan-Wen ZHANG & Qing-Feng WANG, 2004. > > (Caps and semi-colons are mine to make it easier. First author has last name first and co-authors given names first in many scientific periodicals). The caps for the family name (which is not a generally adopted practice but one I generally use the) and hypen for the given names are very clear. Liu XING is one from the romanization alone that suggests it might be backwards. Liu can be a very common family name depending on the character, and XING is a not so common family name. Of course, there are plenty of other non-family name characters with the same pronunciation/romanization. ---
**Author:** ![Amy\_Cheng](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@Amy\_Cheng](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amy_Cheng)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/59 "2017-12-04T17:21:29Z")
This is a fascinating thread. Apparently the Japanese DO adjust their names to accommodate Westerners. Here’s an example from POLITICAL WIRE: Trump Flubs Japanese Prime Minister’s Name February 13, 2017 at 7:58 am ESTBy Taegan Goddard74 Comments Paul Krugman: “When I travel to Asia, I’m fairly often met at the airport by someone holding a sign reading ‘Mr. Paul.’ Why? In much of Asia, names are given family first, personal second — at home, the prime minister of Japan is referred to as Abe Shinzo. And the mistake is completely forgivable when it’s made by a taxi driver picking up a professor.” “It’s not so forgivable, however, if the president of the United States makes the same mistake when welcoming the leader of one of our most important economic and security partners. But there it was: Donald Trump referring to Mr. Abe as, yes, Prime Minister Shinzo.” “Mr. Abe did not, as far as we know, respond by calling his host President Donald.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747/60 "2017-12-04T22:14:55Z")
But he totally should have. Gah, Il Douche is such an embarrassment. :smack: Up-thread some 6 years ago some folks got testy about labeling and organizing the sub-parts of people’s names. For your reading pleasure, here’s a ranty blog post that’s a classic in the software developer world. [Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names | Kalzumeus Software](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/) I always enjoy this one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-generally-reverse-japanese-names-but-keep-chinese-korean-name-order/568747.md?page=4)