# Why do we have birth certificates? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 29, 2016, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376 "2016-08-29T05:51:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/21 "2016-08-29T18:16:29Z")
That’s certainly not it’s original purpose. And in modern times nobody in any country is “owned” by their government. No matter what you might read on the internet from slobbering lunatics. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/22 "2016-08-29T18:17:38Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > So it’s not a method of being “owned” by the government and other entities? No, that’s sovereign citizen nonsense. You can completely discount anything said by someone who believes in it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/23 "2016-08-29T18:34:33Z")
Paul in the New Testament used his Roman Citizenship to some effect - while not a birth certificate, citizenship is important in the history of human society - birth certificates is a claim of and into a society. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/24 "2016-08-29T21:01:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That’s certainly not it’s original purpose. > > And in modern times nobody in any country is “owned” by their government. No matter what you might read on the internet from slobbering lunatics. It seems when I google it I get a bunch of nutty answers about how it’s enslaving people ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/25 "2016-08-29T21:06:37Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > It seems when I google it I get a bunch of nutty answers about how it’s enslaving people You can get nutty answers about anything you Google. Ignore them. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/26 "2016-08-29T21:41:13Z")
There’s a really interesting case, made into a French movie, “The Return of Martin Guerre”. A young man goes off with the army in 1600’s France. When he returns almost 10 years later, he is at first believed when he says who he is, but doubts begin to surface. Basically, in the days before photos, fingerprints, DNA - who is anyone? If memory is all you have to go on, how do you prove this sort of thing? When continuity is broken, like a 10-year-absence, how would you prove this? As society became much larger and more mobile, the need for more precise documentation was necessary. For example, if you have conscription for the Civil War - that works great in small towns, but in large cities, where people show up from somewhere remote and could move to the next city in a hurry. How do you prove someone is eligible for the draft - under 35, or over 18, not married, when it takes a while to verify their credentials. Worse in other countries; in places where people were expected to have “papers” to move around or even live in some places, once urbanization and industrialization took hold, a more documented population was needed. Registration of births was a necessary logical step. I assume the “birth certificate” was an offshoot of “have an official piece of paper saying your birth was registered”. IIRC you could get baptismal records or certificates from the church before that… ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/27 "2016-08-29T21:43:45Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > So it’s not a method of being “owned” by the government and other entities? POW! only took 20 posts to become sovereign citizen nutty. I saw Machinaforce as the OP and I just knew it was a matter of time. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/28 "2016-08-29T22:20:46Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Which is why, when you apply for a passport, they won’t accept a birth certificate as proof of your identity. They’ll want a birth cert _plus_ proof of identity in the form of something official with your photograph and your signature - your birth cert has neither - or an identifying witness who has known you for at least two years, _plus_ your own declaration as to your identity, made under penalty of perjury. Although this is slipping into pedantry, my son recently got a US passport, and his only documentation was a birth certificate. He didn’t need to sign or declare anything or produce a witness that knew him for at least two years, either. He’s only 4 months old, so that would have been a tough witness to produce 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/29 "2016-08-30T01:17:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But proof of identity can be all sorts of things. Years ago, my boss, a man in his 50s with no driver’s licence and no documentation other than a birth certificate, needed a passport. I went to the office with him, and, having known him for most of a decade, I “swore or affirmed” that he was the man named by his birth certificate. > > His stories over the years, including stories of his childhood, seemed consistent and convincing to me. 🙂 He got the passport. Yes, but the proof of his identity was not the birth certificate; it was your testimony. Without your testimony, there would have been no reason to think that the birth certificate was _his_ birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/30 "2016-08-30T01:25:08Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > . . . Presumably the USA, being secular from the start, took on the tasks like registering births that normally fell to the churches. Also, since the constitution mandated a census every 10 years, it was obvious someone saw the value of tracking all these details of who was who and since when. For example, the USA had conscription during the Civil War - someone had to keep track of who was eligible and not, and how to select draftees. No. The US was a relatively late adapter of civil registration of births. It wasn’t until (I think) 1919 that all states had civil registration, and there wasn’t a national standardised form of birth certificate until the 1930s. Prior to 1900 there was a patchwork of state and/or local systems of birth registration, with large areas having no civil registration at all. Even where there was a civil registration system, many births went unregistered. Conscription during the civil war absolutely did operate without birth certificates, since practically nobody had a birth certificate at that time. The UK - well, the England and Wales part of it - had a national birth registration system from 1837, but it wasn’t compulsory until the 1870s. The result was that when old age pensions were introduced in 1908, most of the first generation of claimants had no civil birth certificates to prove their eligibility. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/31 "2016-08-30T02:16:19Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > POW! only took 20 posts to become sovereign citizen nutty. I saw Machinaforce as the OP and I just knew it was a matter of time. I just wanted the truth since those other sites I looked up sounded questionable and I wanted a rational response. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/32 "2016-08-30T03:21:59Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Also do we need them? All of the above posts make good sense, but don’t actually answer the question of do we need birth certificates. We have firmly established that just having a piece of paper does nothing toward proving that the person in possession of that paper was born on the date and at at the place specified. OTOH, the fact that person was in fact born is self-evident, assuming there is a human being standing there. So, what good are birth certificates? Recently my wife applied for her first passport. She had to include an official birth certificate with the application. But except to check that there was in fact an embossed seal on the paper, the clerk of court didn’t pay much attention to it. It was an out of state certificate anyway and it is unlikely the clerk would have had any way to determine the authenticity of the paper. The clerk was only really interested in my wife’s drivers license, which is of course local (but not sufficient for identity according the the federal government). The passport arrived promptly. I can only assume that the state department contractor used the certificate as a starting point to trace my wife’s history to make sure she is who she says she is. I guess that is one way to start the process but hardly the only way. I am not aware of any government function except passports that require one. Ironically a birth certificate is not useful or acceptable to get a drivers license, but a passport is. And to get a passport one needs a birth certificate. Seems kind of silly. So, the OPs question is valid, what good are birth certificates except for passports? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/33 "2016-08-30T03:31:17Z")
It’s a receipt. Don’t lose it or the county clerk may give your parents guff should they choose to return you. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/34 "2016-08-30T03:33:28Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > All of the above posts make good sense, but don’t actually answer the question of do we need birth certificates. We have firmly established that just having a piece of paper does nothing toward proving that the person in possession of that paper was born on the date and at at the place specified. No. But it does establish that the person _named_ in the paper was born on the date and at the place specified. > [@rbroome](#): > > So, the OPs question is valid, what good are birth certificates except for passports? They are useful for proving age (e.g. to establish entitlement to vote; entitlement to a social security benefit; entitlement to enlist, or to refuse to be drafted; a myriad other purposes) and place of birth (e.g. to establish citizenship) and descent (again, to establish citizenship; to establish inheritance rights, or entitlement to maintenance payments; or next-of-kin status). You don’t always need to produce a birth certificate when advancing any of these claims. But that’s partly because your claim may not be challenged. If you advance one of these claims and it _is_ challenged, a birth certificate is a handy thing to have. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/35 "2016-08-30T03:36:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Paul in the New Testament used his Roman Citizenship to some effect - while not a birth certificate, citizenship is important in the history of human society - birth certificates is a claim of and into a society. Interestingly Rome had birth certificates which could help to establish your citizenship but lack of a birth certificate was not evidence of non-citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/36 "2016-08-30T03:38:41Z")
As far as establishing identity I don’t know of any method short of including a hash of your DNA profile on the certificate which would allow a certificate, issued at birth, to prove that a particular person is the person mentioned on the certificate. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/37 "2016-08-30T06:13:45Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > All of the above posts make good sense, but don’t actually answer the question of do we need birth certificates. We have firmly established that just having a piece of paper does nothing toward proving that the person in possession of that paper was born on the date and at at the place specified. OTOH, the fact that person was in fact born is self-evident, assuming there is a human being standing there. > > So, what good are birth certificates? Recently my wife applied for her first passport. She had to include an official birth certificate with the application. But except to check that there was in fact an embossed seal on the paper, the clerk of court didn’t pay much attention to it. It was an out of state certificate anyway and it is unlikely the clerk would have had any way to determine the authenticity of the paper. The clerk was only really interested in my wife’s drivers license, which is of course local (but not sufficient for identity according the the federal government). The passport arrived promptly. I can only assume that the state department contractor used the certificate as a starting point to trace my wife’s history to make sure she is who she says she is. I guess that is one way to start the process but hardly the only way. I am not aware of any government function except passports that require one. Ironically a birth certificate is not useful or acceptable to get a drivers license, but a passport is. And to get a passport one needs a birth certificate. Seems kind of silly. So, the OPs question is valid, what good are birth certificates except for passports? We’ve had huge long threads here on “how do you prove who you are?” Basically, in today’s document-oriented world, your life leaves a paper trail. Employers, SS number, birth certificate, drivers license going back to age 16, voter registrations, landlords’ receipts or property tax roles, credit cards, credit history, census data… not to mention affidavits from friends and business colleagues. You may be missing, one, some, or most of these - but somewhere nowadays, unless you live an very odd life, there is documentation if someone needs to follow up. (The Jason Statham move _“Parker”_ - Jennifer Lopez tells him “I did a credit check and Parker didn’t exist until six months ago…”) So the question is - how badly does the other party want to verify your identity; and in some circumstances, getting caught in a lie will have serious consequences. Even if you don’t have a registered birth, somewhere - first day of school, or if home schooled, first day of work and applying for a SS number - you will have to state something about your birth - date and place - and it will be progressively more difficult to claim differently going forward… === I didn’t mean to imply birth certificates were a necessary part of the Civil War draft; just that this sort of government activity was one more lesson to the bureaucracy of the day why they needed to ensure their citizens were better tracked… and registering births was something that had been done already for centuries by churches. (fun fact - there was a suggestion that the extremely old folks of the Caucus mountains in the 1960’s was in fact a result of young men assuming their father’s identity during WWI to avoid the draft. Soviet Russia went along with the joke because news stories about 130-year-old Caucus mountain dwellers were one fo the few things that brought Tass hard currency.) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/38 "2016-08-30T06:48:15Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@snfaulkner](#): > > POW! only took 20 posts to become sovereign citizen nutty. I saw Machinaforce as the OP and I just knew it was a matter of time. We’re in General Questions. Stick to the facts. If you want to make a post like this about someone, take it to the Pit. No warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/39 "2016-08-30T07:36:41Z")
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned this girl. She was the subject of a Radiolab podcast. Born at home (Texas). Home schooled. No official papers at all, including birth certificate. She can answer " **why do we have birth certificates ?"** [90 second YouTube video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPtpKNyaO0U) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376/40 "2016-08-30T14:49:12Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > I’m surprised nobody has mentioned this girl. [More](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2952933/Grandfather-girl-doesn-t-exist-reveals-rescued-turned-18-grid-Christian-parents-nenver-registered-birth.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-birth-certificates/764376.md?page=3)