# Why do we have money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632 "2016-09-01T05:13:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/61 "2016-09-02T12:38:25Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > although the aggregate demand for neurosurgery is relatively tiny compared to the demand for Big Macs, the demand for neurosurgery _compare to the supply of neurosurgeons_ is quite large. Related to this is the fact that if you need a few additional fast food workers, you can hire and train them to a useful skill level quickly; not so with neurosurgeons. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/62 "2016-09-02T12:51:09Z")
Right. It costs a lot more, and takes a lot longer, to manufacture a surgeon than it does a burger flipper. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/63 "2016-09-02T12:55:48Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Right. It costs a lot more, and takes a lot longer, to manufacture a surgeon than it does a burger flipper. And, again: I can flip myself a burger – and so I pay someone very little money to do something for me that I can already do for myself. [sneers] “It’s not exactly brain surgery, is it?” [/sneers] ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/64 "2016-09-02T13:40:42Z")
The whole philosophical point behind e.g. neurosurgeons vs. burger flippers is the natural tension between economics and politics. Most Americans have a totemic belief in capital-D Democracy: one man one vote, all men (people actually) equal before the law, etc., etc. Most Americans have a totemic belief in some variation of economic meritocracy: From each according to his ambition \* ability; to each according to the (negotiated) sales price of his efforts. Those two ideas are fine each in isolation, but sit awkwardly side by side. For example: Why not have “one dollar one vote?” After all, we define many of the attributes of civic virtue in terms of money. Conversely, if we’re all civically equal, why do we have vast disparities in economic power? Power that can be translated, both legitimately and illegitimately, into civic power as well. How much can / should civic power be used to increase or decrease disparities in economic power? How much can / should economic power be used to increase or decrease disparities in civic power? Writ large: Does society exist to support an economy or does an economy exist to support a society? There is no ideal way to square this circle. Many different answers have been tried over many centuries all around the world. The general trend over the last 500 years in the West has been for distributed civic power to gain over concentrated economic power. The large-scale reversal of that trend in the last 30ish years has created a lot of angst in the West. The OP (probably) has no clue how deep is the issue he’s asking about, but it smells to me like he’s stumbling around near the outskirts of this conundrum. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/65 "2016-09-02T16:20:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Writ large: Does society exist to support an economy or does an economy exist to support a society? I was with you up to this point. But I don’t see how any sort of meaningful distinction can be made between these two. A society’s economic activity is a huge and vital part of what make it a society. For a rough analogy, it’s like trying to make a distinction between a human body and its circulatory system. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/66 "2016-09-02T16:39:41Z")
There was the old saying in Soviet Russia - “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us.” Sarcastic novels like Animal Farm make the point that humans, like pigs, are greedy and lazy and happier to take than to give. When we were discussing hiring IT staff many moons ago, I made the observation that beyond a certain point, money wasn’t a great motivator for younger staff. The boss replied, “yes, but it’s a great way for everyone to keep score.” ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/67 "2016-09-02T16:48:49Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > There was the old saying in Soviet Russia - “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us.” Sarcastic novels like Animal Farm make the point that humans, like pigs, are greedy and lazy and happier to take than to give. > > When we were discussing hiring IT staff many moons ago, I made the observation that beyond a certain point, money wasn’t a great motivator for younger staff. The boss replied, “yes, but it’s a great way for everyone to keep score.” Which is where Christianity gets a hat tip from Marxism, another ideology that moved millions with imagery of Utopia: > **[Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Workers_in_the_Vineyard)** > > The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (also called the Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard or the Parable of the Generous Employer) is a parable of Jesus which appears in chapter 20 of the Gospel of Matthew in the New Testament. It is not included in the other canonical gospels. It has been described as a difficult parable to interpret. > “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for... ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/68 "2016-09-02T19:34:45Z")
Many answers to the OP have been offered, so I hope it is okay to go off-topic with the something that really ought to go in the “About This Message Board” section. [rant] Is there any way to do something about people who pose questions, stick around for maybe an hour, and never return to respond to the answers that have been offered? :mad: :mad: :mad: [/rant] ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/69 "2016-09-02T20:16:14Z")
Agree. That frustrates me too. Though we can never know if an OP is reading all the responses and simply lurking thereafter. One approach is for each of us to look at the poster as well as the post before responding. See what else they’ve posted. See how those threads developed. etc. Viewed in the abstract that wouldn’t work well for newbie’s first posts. But we’re hardly overrun with newbies, or posts in general for that matter these days, so I’m more inclined to give newbies the benefit of the doubt and reply as if they’re sincere, sane, and thoughtful. Even if their first post is a bit shaky. They may or may not grow into valuable members of the community, but how will we know if we don’t encourage them the right way by our collective example? Mindful of the mod inputs above I’ll make no comment on the posting history of this particular OP. Though I had taken note of that history after another thread of his from a few days earlier. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/70 "2016-09-05T00:50:57Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Why not have “one dollar one vote?” After all, we define many of the attributes of civic virtue in terms of money. > > Conversely, if we’re all civically equal, why do we have vast disparities in economic power? Power that can be translated, both legitimately and illegitimately, into civic power as well. I believe the answer to this is that “one person one vote” attempts to treat all individuals as equal under law. “One dollar one vote” would disproportionately advantage the wealthy, even more than they are now. We have vast disparities in economic power because we are not equal when it comes to our contributions to society. Capitalism works when it rewards people who take risks and build the companies that produce the goods and services that benefit society. Even the evil investment banks, hedge funds and vc firms serve a valuable role in financing those companies and actively seeking ways to make markets more efficient. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/71 "2016-09-05T01:45:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Agree. That frustrates me too. Though we can never know if an OP is reading all the responses and simply lurking thereafter. > > One approach is for each of us to look at the poster as well as the post before responding. See what else they’ve posted. See how those threads developed. etc. You will only be disappointed in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/72 "2016-09-08T03:52:36Z")
> [@Pixel\_Dent](#): > > I can’t remember the source of this quote, but I always liked… > > “The problem with ‘From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs’ is that man has unlimited needs and unimagined abilities.” This is a pretty terrible refutation of “From each according to his abilities, etc…”, because it assumes that you’re letting individuals self-define their own needs, abilities, etc…, instead of having some kind of central authority make those decisions. I don’t think for a moment that Marx expected individuals to self define their needs and abilities, and we clearly know that the communist states didn’t. Need and ability, in the context of this slogan, are meant to be socially defined (in practice, by the state). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/73 "2016-09-08T03:58:50Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > **From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.** > > Let’s say you’re a farmer who works really hard and always produces to the utmost of your ability. > > Then you go to the person in charge of distributing stuff according to need and say, “I need a new iPad.” > > The person says, “You don’t NEED an iPad. The only people who need iPads are graduate students in engineering.” > > So you go to the dean of the engineering school and say, “I want to be an engineer.” > > The dean says, “Society doesn’t need any more engineers at this time. We need farmers. And you’re a really good farmer, so go back to work.” > > Wouldn’t you really rather be paid in money and buy your own iPad? Probably, but this doesn’t really answer the question _would it be better for society as a whole_ if I got that iPad, or if those resources were used for some other purpose. I also suspect that if we lived in a society like that, sooner or later people would get used to the prospect of living without iPads, just like most of us are perfectly happy living without a Ferrari. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/74 "2016-09-08T04:05:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But what if Alice is a neurosurgeon and Bob works in fast food? One hour of Alice’s work is much more difficult. If your goal here is “how do we encourage people to be neurosurgeons, and how do we encourage neurosurgeons to work lots of hours”, there are ways to do that that don’t involve money. Even in a world where, let’s say, plumbers and neurosurgeons both made $50k a year, there would be lots of reasons someone might prefer to be a neurosurgeon than a plumber. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/75 "2016-09-08T11:06:49Z")
> [@Keeve](#): > > [rant] Is there any way to do something about people who pose questions, stick around for maybe an hour, and never return to respond to the answers that have been offered? :mad: :mad: :mad: [/rant] Does it really matter? I am mindful of a teacher who makes a statement to their class and then sits back to see them develop the discussion. In that case the teacher is interested in who speaks and how they shape an argument; on this board, the responses are often very interesting. If the OP doesn’t come back, and I guess that they can be many reasons for that, others will often take up the argument oh their behalf. The ones that do frustrate, are the questions of fact, with insufficient detail. Like “My car wont start, how can I fix it?” This generates questions but the OP does not return. These threads usually die fast. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/76 "2016-09-08T15:10:15Z")
Years ago, when I was involved with the election campaign for a conservative candidate, he used this analogy about socialism: Imagine if you were in school and studied really hard for a test, and got 95%. The fellows sitting across the aisle only got 40% and 50%. So the teacher says, “It’s not fair that you got so many marks, I’ll take some of them and give them to Fred and Joe who didn’t do so well.” How hard are you going to study for the next test? As for abandoned questions - I like the direction(s) the discussion takes on some question. Whether the original poster responds or even bothers to read the thread afterwards is irrelevant to me. Obviously, this was an interesting question (although rather simplistic) and generated discussion and several people read and participated. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/77 "2016-09-08T15:15:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Is an hour of student worth as much as an hour of teacher? I’m not sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/78 "2016-09-08T15:18:25Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Imagine if you were in school and studied really hard for a test, and got 95%. The fellows sitting across the aisle only got 40% and 50%. So the teacher says, “It’s not fair that you got so many marks, I’ll take some of them and give them to Fred and Joe who didn’t do so well.” How hard are you going to study for the next test?. I do find it astonishing with hindsight that vast numbers of highly intelligent people bought into Communist ideals without grasping that it’s fundamentally contrary to key aspects of human nature. I guess it’ a corollary to the deeply misguided denial of human nature that permeated social sciences in the 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/79 "2016-09-08T16:26:33Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I do find it astonishing with hindsight that vast numbers of highly intelligent people bought into Communist ideals without grasping that it’s fundamentally contrary to key aspects of human nature. I guess it’ a corollary to the deeply misguided denial of human nature that permeated social sciences in the 20th century. As Communism developed, it attempted (or claimed) to solve the “human nature” issue with the philosophy of the “[New Soviet Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man)”. Generation by Generation, human nature itself would be shaped by the State so that Communism would work because of the ingrained desire to be truly Communist. That’s just exchanging one fantasy for another, but it did buy time. 90 years’ worth, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632/80 "2016-09-08T16:31:24Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Years ago, when I was involved with the election campaign for a conservative candidate, he used this analogy about socialism: > > Imagine if you were in school and studied really hard for a test, and got 95%. The fellows sitting across the aisle only got 40% and 50%. So the teacher says, “It’s not fair that you got so many marks, I’ll take some of them and give them to Fred and Joe who didn’t do so well.” How hard are you going to study for the next test? > > As for abandoned questions - I like the direction(s) the discussion takes on some question. Whether the original poster responds or even bothers to read the thread afterwards is irrelevant to me. Obviously, this was an interesting question (although rather simplistic) and generated discussion and several people read and participated. That’s a terrible analogy, because it assumes that money is a proxy for (in this case) either intelligence or achievement. It certainly can be, but it can be lots of other things too- you can acquire money by inheriting it, or by rent from property you own, or by investment income, or in a lot of other ways that don’t directly involve work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-money/764632.md?page=5)