# Why do we have stop signs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 27, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211 "2010-07-27T18:34:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/41 "2010-07-27T20:56:09Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > They seem to be all the rage with American traffic engineers now, but, IME, too few American drivers know how to handle them yet. I’ve been in any number of close-calls with drivers who cannot figure out how to navigate a traffic circle (particularly those who don’t get the concept of, “YIELD to the traffic coming from your left, you idiot!”) It shouldn’t be that difficult to learn: unless otherwise posted, yield to traffic within the circle. There ya go. If the residents of Swindon, England, can figure out the [Swindon Magic Roundabout](http://www.ellemosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/magic_roundabout.jpg), I’m sure our populace can figure out a simple roundabout. It’s a bit of a chicken-egg problem, though. Folks don’t know how to handle roundabouts because they aren’t very many in most parts of the US. Most of the US doesn’t have roundabouts because people don’t know how to navigate them. Put an average American driver in a European city for a few days, and eventually they will figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/42 "2010-07-27T20:57:48Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > I forget where it is - Norway, perhaps, but there’s a European city that has removed all traffic control devices - they have no traffic signals, no stop signs, none of that. [Makkinga](http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html) in the Netherlands. The concept is called [shared space](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/43 "2010-07-27T21:01:55Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > Found the city with no signs… The small Dutch town of [Makkinga](http://dvice.com/archives/2007/09/a-town-with-no-traffic-signs.php)doesn’t even have lane markings. > > [Some other European cities](http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,448747,00.html) are having pretty decent luck with removing traffic signs as well. I wonder if that will last, or if it some variation on the [observer effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect). In other words, the drivers know their town is “special” so take extra care to drive carefully. Once the novelty wears off or everyone is doing it, I wonder if the accident rate will creep back up. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/44 "2010-07-27T21:22:14Z")
> [@StinkyBurrito](#): > > How are you supposed to tell if it is an uncontrolled intersection without a sign telling you that it is an uncontrolled intersection? And if they have to put a sign in telling drivers that it is an uncontrolled intersection, then why don’t they just put up the proper stop or yield signs? Or are you just supposed to stop at every single intersection whether it has a stop sign or not? In which case, why spend money on stop signs for any intersections. I don’t get it. You’re supposed to “know” because it’s so common (here). That’s why it’s so very dangerous, for those of us coming from places where “no sign” equals “right of way.” ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/45 "2010-07-27T21:39:58Z")
> [@NetTrekker](#): > > > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > > > > [@NetTrekker](#): > > > > > > > [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > > > > > > > Couldn’t all stop signs (or maybe 95%) be replaced with yield signs? I would think that the amount of gasoline conserved would be staggering. > > > > > > > > I just can’t think of any logical or compelling reason that I should have to stop at an intersection if there is no traffic coming. > > > > > > What if someone else is coming at the same time, and both decide they can beat the other thru the intersection…or figure the other one will stop, so I don’t have to… > > > > Then the 4 way stop sign rules would apply. > > And be as useless as a screen door on a submarine (now where did I hear that before?) But isn’t that because yield signs are routinely ignored? And aren’t they ignored because we also have stop signs? If we only had yield signs, people would have to pay attention to them. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/46 "2010-07-27T21:53:08Z")
A lot of people already treat stop signs as yield signs… Slow, look, and full stop only if traffic demands it. So why shouldn’t the sign conform to practice? ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/47 "2010-07-27T21:58:00Z")
[Sacramento, CA](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=sacramento,+ca&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sacramento,+California&gl=us&ei=m1VPTPCBC4_0swOA-Nm1Bw&ved=0CCIQ8gEwAA&ll=38.605645,-121.408764&spn=0.000676,0.001373&t=k&z=20) yield signs where you normally see stops ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/48 "2010-07-27T21:58:31Z")
It’s always assumed that you have right of way if there’s no sign? That’s strange… There are many intersections without signs in Germany, but there you have to yield to the right. If a major road crosses a minor road, there are yield signs on the minor and right of way signs on the major road. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/49 "2010-07-27T22:12:33Z")
[Here’s](http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/pubs/itcd/yields.pdf) a traffic engineering thing on installing stop vs. yield signs. [PDF] ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/50 "2010-07-27T23:09:52Z")
Here’s a typical [roundabout](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Hamilton,+Boundary+Road,+Waikato,+New+Zealand&sll=47.677604,-122.291506&sspn=0.002434,0.004485&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Boundary+Rd,+Hamilton+3214,+New+Zealand&ll=-37.772729,175.293598&spn=0.00142,0.002242&t=k&z=19&layer=c&cbll=-37.772652,175.293361&panoid=INwsfqtbaw2160g9Lr4HbA&cbp=12,82.03,,0,5) just down the road from where I live. Each entering road has a Give Way (Yield) sign, so traffic entering gives way to traffic already on. The main disadvantage with these, and where they eventually end up having traffic lights, is if one of the ‘straight through’ roads has high traffic flows compared to the other roads. It makes it hard for traffic to the left of the high traffic road to enter the roundabout. This [intersection](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Greenwood+Street+and+Killarney+road+Waikato,+New+Zealand&sll=-37.794915,175.261095&sspn=0.00568,0.008969&ie=UTF8&ll=-37.795025,175.260794&spn=0.00284,0.004485&t=k&z=18) on the other side of town used to have a roundabout but got changed to lights a few years back. Typically, NZ streets do not have 4 way Stop signs, and have considerably fewer Stop signs in general, tending more to Give Way signs on one pair of a 4 way intersection, or an uncontrolled intersection. ---
**Author:** ![chrisk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@chrisk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chrisk)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/51 "2010-07-28T00:27:37Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > > > Many stoplights still turn into blinking lights at a certain time of night in Green Bay. I think the rationale is: ‘Why bother with a full stop and waiting for a light when the traffic is no longer heavy?’ > > I completely agree. It’s frustrating to be driving home at midnight or 1 a.m., and to be stuck at a stoplight for 30 or 60 seconds, while absolutely no traffic flows through in the other direction. > > I think it just struck my wife as being something out of Green Acres. 😃 I remember the blinking yellow, blinking red late at night routine, when I was growing up, here in Hamilton. It’s been years and years since I saw it anywhere. I wonder if somebody decided that people don’t remember what to do with them when they’re tired or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/52 "2010-07-28T01:07:43Z")
> [@StinkyBurrito](#): > > How are you supposed to tell if it is an uncontrolled intersection without a sign telling you that it is an uncontrolled intersection? How do I know if there are signs at the intersection? Usually I look: if there are no signs, then there are no signs. But if there is a sign, then there’s a sign. (Is this some sort of zen koan?) ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/53 "2010-07-28T01:21:38Z")
I don’t have time to read all the replies to see if this has been mentioned, but I see a potential problem with having so many yield signs. When two cars come to a yield sign, the car in back may be looking at oncoming traffic and think it looks clear enough to keep rolling while the car in front may be doing something else, even slamming on his brakes and stopping altogether. When there’s a line of cars, people have to pay attention to two directions. Attention has to be split more than at a stop sign. While that isn’t really a danger and probably doesn’t account for a lot of accidents now, I bet it would make accident rates go up if you replaced 95% of stops with yields. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/54 "2010-07-28T01:38:41Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > There are many intersections without signs in Germany, but there you have to yield to the right. As you do here. At least in Illinois. Google “uncontrolled intersection” and the name of your state to see if the law applies in your state, too. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/55 "2010-07-28T01:40:32Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > a potential problem with having so many yield signs. When two cars come to a yield sign, the car in back may be looking at oncoming traffic and think it looks clear enough to keep rolling while the car in front may be doing something else, even slamming on his brakes and stopping altogether. When there’s a line of cars, people have to pay attention to two directions. Attention has to be split more than at a stop sign. I’ve had 6 accidents in my driving career, all minor, but all caused by that situation. Lots of give way signs in Australia, few stop signs. Stop signs are placed where visibility isn’t ideal. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/56 "2010-07-28T02:02:54Z")
> [@gotpasswords](#): > > I forget where it is - Norway, perhaps, but there’s a European city that has removed all traffic control devices - they have no traffic signals, no stop signs, none of that. > > It’s been a spectacular success. When forced to be careful, people actually can drive safely without a bunch of signs telling them what to do. Driving speeds can be slowed right down to a crawl, if desired, by design elements (for example, rougher paving textures–cobbles instead of asphalt). There are many such elements; the more are incorporated into a street design, the slower traffic will go. In general, though, American traffic engineers see their job as providing “unimpeded flow,” which is to say moving cars through as efficiently as possible regardless of the consequences for the streetscape and people not in cars. What safety standards are commonly obeyed have to do with the safety of cars and drivers more so than bicyclists or pedestrians. An intersection near my mother’s house was recently converted from T to circle (with Yield signs), which removed some brief delays for drivers making left turns from two of the approaches–but it also destroyed a walking route through the intersection. With its flow unimpeded by any signed Stops, it is now totally unsafe for pedestrians to cross. Meanwhile, I live in a rural area, with one very small town and a grand total of one traffic _light_ in the entire county of ~380 square miles. A significant fraction of the county’s lesser roads are unpaved dirt tracks, and many of these don’t have two “lanes” of width–when cars approach from opposite directions, somebody has to run off the road a little. Until a few years back, there was actually a public road that ran _in_ a stream bed for part of its course. And yet, for all that, there are Stop signs all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/57 "2010-07-28T02:48:13Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > > [@spark240](#): > > > > “Yield” requires that every driver approaching the intersection be able to see any and all drivers also approaching, from any of the other directions, without slowing down. Most intersections don’t meet this description. > > I’ve never heard the “without slowing down” part. Not that I’m doubting you, you may be a traffic engineer for all that I know, but do you have a citation for that? My google fu doesn’t seem to support it either way. > [@](#): > > (1) Preferential right-of-way may be indicated by stop signs or yield signs as authorized in RCW [47.36.110](http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=47.36.110). > > ``` > (2) Except when directed to proceed by a duly authorized flagger, or a police officer, or a firefighter vested by law with authority to direct, control, or regulate traffic, every driver of a vehicle approaching a stop sign shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering a marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the roadway, and after having stopped shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time when such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways. > > (3) **The driver of a vehicle approaching a yield sign shall in obedience to such sign slow down to a speed reasonable for the existing conditions** and if required for safety to stop, shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, but if none, before entering a marked crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or if none, then at the point nearest the intersecting roadway where the driver has a view of approaching traffic on the intersecting roadway before entering the roadway, and then after slowing or stopping, the driver shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another roadway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time such driver is moving across or within the intersection or junction of roadways: PROVIDED, That if such a driver is involved in a collision with a vehicle in the intersection or junction of roadways, after driving past a yield sign without stopping, such collision shall be deemed prima facie evidence of the driver's failure to yield right-of-way. > > ``` (Bolding mine.) [http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.190](http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.190) In Washington State you are required by law to slow down before approaching a yield sign. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/58 "2010-07-28T02:57:30Z")
Interesting. Of course that’s Washington state, which is already looking strange in this context. And what exactly does “reasonable for the existing conditions” mean? To me, if I can _see_ that the other approaches are clear, it’s _reasonable_ for me to burn through without ever touching the brake. But under the Washington standard, if it were upheld in practice for the many intersections without such wide visibility, I suppose many Stop signs in my neck of the woods _could_ be replaced by Yields. But since reasonable safe driving practice for these would in fact require a stop or near stop, why not just keep things clear and simple, and say Stop? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/59 "2010-07-28T03:34:35Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Apparently, some of these roundabouts, as I discovered have traffic signals stopping oncoming traffic (which is what I expected), while others do not and you’re supposed to yield to traffic that’s already on the circle. Which is counterintuitive to me. When I see “green,” I assume it means go, and you have the right of way. I would treat them like the onramps in the Twin Cities that had red/green lights on them. When the light turns green, you’re allowed to merge onto the highway, but you still have to yield to cars that are already there. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211/60 "2010-07-28T05:23:49Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > How do I know if there are signs at the intersection? Usually I look: if there are no signs, then there are no signs. But if there is a sign, then there’s a sign. > > (Is this some sort of zen koan?) No. The question is “How do you know whether its an intersection where no sign means you have the right of way, or whether it’s one that means that you follow basic stop sign rules?” It’s not like you usually can tell far enough ahead of time whether the other roads have signs–that’s why four way stops are always labeled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-stop-signs/548211.md?page=4)