# Why do we have to put up with Religious People? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474 "2020-08-07T06:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/362 "2020-08-09T02:57:04Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > My son started a Secular Humanist Club on campus at the state university and the student association gave the funds to sustain it and continue to. I agree with your point about small-city and middle America. I think that, in many places, it’s far more tolerant of atheism and agnosticism that a lot of city people realize. But the funding thing is, for the most part, a legal requirement. As a government institution, your local state university is required by the Constitution not to engage in viewpoint discrimination in its allocation of funding. If the student association had refused your son’s request while funding religious institutions, he would have had a viable claim against them for violation of his first amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/363 "2020-08-09T03:08:41Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s not what I said. I said that I cannot be harmed by it being aborted. Let me quote your own words to you: > [@k9bfriender](#): > > A fetus is no more harmed by being aborted than it is by having never being conceived at all. That suggests strongly to me that you believe a fetus is not harmed by abortion, because how can something or someone that is never conceived suffer any harm? And, as I suggested in a different post, why can’t you apply this principle to a living human? If you kill a living human, that person (once dead) is no worse off than they would have been if they had never been conceived in the first place. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you feel that enlightened self interest is not a good foundation upon which to build, may I ask what you found your moral system upon? I never said that enlightened self-interest is a bad foundation. Your own articulation of your worldview in this thread, however, bears no real resemblance to enlightened self-interest as it’s commonly understood. It’s more along the lines of pathological self-centeredness. If you believe that the central and only guiding principle of enlightened self-interest is “How does this harm me?”, might I suggest that you read up on the concept. To be honest, I think I have to stop talking about this with you, partly because it’s become a hijack from the main thrust of the OP’s questions, but mainly because your argument here is so divorced from any relationship with reality. It seems to be based on a variety of misreadings of political and philosophical principles, leavened with a healthy smattering of logical incoherence. I just don’t think we can have a productive discussion about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/364 "2020-08-09T03:10:56Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So I’ll guess I will echo @mhendo a bit here, in that I consider that a terrible underpinning for an ethical framework. At any rate most ethical systems at least ask how would you feel if said thing happened to you, even if it never could. I will also note that your moral code is based on an unsupported belief itself: that your selfish desires actually matter. How would I feel if an abortion happened to me? Exactly the same way I would have felt if my father had worn a condom the night I was conceived. My selfish desires matter to me. I don’t expect them to matter to you. But, I do expect your selfish desires to matter to you, and if we can agree on our selfish desires, then we are on our way to building a society. Get enough people together that don’t want to be murdered or have their friends and family murdered, and we can impose our will to try to make the murderers stop. Get enough people together that don’t want to be stolen from, and we can condemn thieves. If you can get together enough people that don’t want to be aborted, then we can talk. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Not to mention I see nothing in your statements that seem to indicate that a just born child shouldn’t be killed either. Would I be correct that that would be your positions (say if the parents could not take care of it prior to when it could show agency - though in that case it would require belief as to when agency happens as well. Although killing a 1 month old wouldn’t really affect you or your friends and family) Sadly, infanticide has been a fact of life since long before any semblance of civilization. If you had an extra mouth to feed, and didn’t have enough to go around, then leaving it out in the snow was better for everyone, infant included. I am happy to live in a time and place when this is no longer necessary, in that unwanted pregnancies can be either terminated much more humanely, or the child taken care of as wards of the state rather than being left to the elements (though I would like to see drastic improvement in that). However, I would not judge someone in a bad situation, rather that be in our past, or in some very impoverished places in the present, that left their newborn out in the cold, rather than stretch already inadequate resources. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/365 "2020-08-09T03:12:48Z")
My Baptist mom always called that kind of prayer “talking to the congregation over God’s shoulder,” implying that it was a performance rather than an expression of gratitude. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/366 "2020-08-09T03:19:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you believe that the central and only guiding principle of enlightened self-interest is “How does this harm me?”, might I suggest that you read up on the concept. If you believe that that is what I have said, then you have been reading something completely different. I did not say that the guiding principle of enlightened self interest is “how does this harm me?” I said that that is the bar that is required before I can judge the actions of others. If you are going to tell someone that they cannot do something, then you should be able to articulate how it harms you. Do you not agree with this? What other reason can you use to justify to limit the actions of others? ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/367 "2020-08-09T03:20:18Z")
> [@Bacon\_Cheeseburger](#): > > Yes, humans have historically, and currently, been religious, and as such believing in mythological beings is the “norm” or normal. As a fellow atheist, I’d urge you to understand all religions before you criticize them. All deserve criticism but for different reasons. Your belief that Humans have always believed in mythological beings itself needs some examination. For example : Circa 1500 BC, Rig Veda was written which is one of the Hindu religious books. It has a chapter equivalent to the genesis chapter of the Holy Bible. It says that God may or may not have created the universe. He/She may or may not be all powerful. He/She may or may not even know the secret to creation, even if he/she were to exist. The answers to these questions are Unknowable. The Gita highlights 4 broad life paths : Karma - the path where people find joy in the work they do and that’s the path for their enlightenment; Bhakti - the path where people find joy/comfort in devotion to a deity, real or imagined; Gyana - joy/comfort in seeking knowledge and Kriya : Joy/comfort in seeking the meaning and origin of life itself. Many aspects of modern atheism is not new - in fact it goes back thousands of years. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/368 "2020-08-09T03:39:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Why should that be an argument for anyone in the world other than you, if you’re unwilling to acknowledge an argument about harm to somebody else? > > Every single one of us is “somebody else” to everyone else in the society (and for that matter in the universe.) If you’re claiming that an argument against harm to me doesn’t count for you, then it logically would follow that an argument against harm to you can’t possibly count for anyone else; in which case there’s no sense in your making it. No, I assume that we all selfishly desire to not be murdered, and based on that, we can mutually exclude those who don’t agree with that assessment. Anything else that we don’t want to have happen to ourselves, we can forbid others doing. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So do we all. > > I believe that you are actually a person who I’m arguing with, and not a figment of my imagination. I believe that this keyboard I’m typing on exists, and is not a figment of my imagination; and so is the cat who wants me to pat her instead of typing. I believe that people exist who need to have abortions if their lives are not to be screwed, and that other people exist who want to stop them from doing so. > > But the foundation of all of that is, in essence, a leap of faith. Or, I suppose, multiple leaps of faith; I have direct physical sensation of the keyboard and the cat, after all, so that only requires believing that my senses are in at least some form reporting something that’s actually happening; but my knowledge that people who I don’t personally know are debating abortion comes only from reading about it. I think that I am badly paraphrasing Neil Degrass Tyson in saying that reality is what is left when you stop believing in anything else. Close your eyes and stop believing in your cat. Well, wait, that might work, try your keyboard instead. Now open them, is it still there? Reality is what I interact with, and what affects me, whether or not I believe in it. This may be a simulation, a game, or a delusion, but that doesn’t change the fact that I experience a world with cause and effect. This can be empirically proven to any degree of certainty and accuracy. What you described is just object permanence, where you continue to believe i things that you have seen or experienced. What I am discounting is a belief in something that has not been seen or experienced. > [@Velocity](#): > > I think a lot of this ties into a concept that someone called “My circle versus your circle.” > > If I want to wear a blue T-shirt, fine. I am staying in my circle. If you want to wear a red T-shirt, fine. You are staying in your circle. > > But if I try to compel you to wear a blue T-shirt, then that’s different; I am now intruding into your circle. > > That is what some Christians do when they expect non-Christians to join them in prayer before a meal. They are no longer staying in their circle but trying to intrude into the non-Christian’s circle. But some Christians do not understand this. They do not see compelling others to partake in their own religious customs as a case of intruding into someone else’s circle. It’s more like you have people with red shirts, and people with blue shirts that stay in their circles, and some other people that don’t care about fashion that don’t want to be told what to wear by anyone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/369 "2020-08-09T03:44:11Z")
> [@Bacon\_Cheeseburger](#): > > Can I openly state that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, etc. are all delusional? The feedback from this seems to be “No”, your a jerk, or Islamaphobe, or whatever. People can believe in whatever tooth fairy they want to and how dare you question that right. You have done so, so I guess you can. While I agree with you in principle that religious people believe in something that has no evidence, and often even in spite of evidence, I do not think that calling them delusional is the best way to start a theological conversation. In fact, it is best to simply let the facts speak for themselves and keep your opinions to yourself. OTOH, if you just want to rant about delusional people who believe in magical beings, knock yourself out if you think that you will enjoy it and that you may entertain others of like mind, but don’t think that it is going to sway a single mind. (I’d recommend such a rant to take place in the pit, personally.) ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/370 "2020-08-09T03:46:02Z")
Thank you for replying to me. Do you think we are ever going to get bacon\_cheeseburger to see the light of day? Seems like she/he/they are doing exactly what they are railing about. I’m getting weary but I hate to give up the good fight. Regards ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/371 "2020-08-09T03:53:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Although ain’t nobody more superstitious than athletes and sports fans. No matter if they’re religious or not) People who play the lottery, but I suspect there is significant overlap. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/372 "2020-08-09T04:08:47Z")
OP, let’s say for the sake of argument that you and I are coworkers, neighbors, or otherwise need to interact on occasion. What would you ask of me? 1. Not speak to you about my religious beliefs? Fine. There are a bajillion other things to talk about. I have zero desire to convince anyone to believe in a certain way, and I don’t think my religious/spiritual beliefs make me morally superior. I have plenty of friends who are atheists, and I spend zero time worrying about them facing eternal damnation. 2. Not speak about them in your presence? Sorry, not likely. I’m not likely to start the conversation, but if it happens I won’t avoid it. I’m sure you’re aware of this already, but even many who identify as Christian don’t believe in sky gods either. I’m fine with people saying that my belief in God as the ground of being is a fairy tale if that’s what they think. I’m offended if you don’t wear a mask or keep distance from others during a pandemic, but not if you think my religious beliefs are BS. My response to “you believe in fairy tales” is “I think they are much closer to myths, with some folk tales thrown in.” I definitely don’t take the Biblical accounts literally. To fundamentalists, that make me not Xian. Fine. I believe what I believe, and am not going to pretend to accept a literal interpretation of stories collected thousands of years ago to avoid having a jealous deity casting me into a lake of fire. If such a deity existed, he/she wouldn’t be so easily fooled. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/373 "2020-08-09T04:17:14Z")
One word could be changed in the title of this thread, and we could ask the OP just about the same question. “Why do we have to put up with Atheistic People?” What would be the response? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/374 "2020-08-09T04:17:50Z")
Well, look at all the gambling that goes on over sporting events? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/375 "2020-08-09T04:21:38Z")
The “atheistic people” are a very small minority that have no real social or political power to speak of…and do you know the difference between “punching up” and “punching down”? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/376 "2020-08-09T04:34:15Z")
What about religious atheists? Our church has plenty of atheist members. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/377 "2020-08-09T04:42:21Z")
In other words, “it’s okay when WE do it”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/378 "2020-08-09T04:44:23Z")
Because you haven’t proven that god exists. You can’t claim that someone is delusional for _not_ believing in something for which there is no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/379 "2020-08-09T04:45:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In other words, “it’s okay when WE do it” Can you give it another shot…only _this_ time respond to what I actually said instead of the ready made dialog in your head you have a response for. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/380 "2020-08-09T05:04:42Z")
To be fair to the OP, there are several major religions that have a real problem with bacon cheeseburgers. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2020, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/381 "2020-08-09T06:39:10Z")
> [@Bacon\_Cheeseburger](#): > > As an Atheist, I’m getting a little tired of the “there is magic giant in the sky” crowd. > > Some of them are very nice people, do charity work, etc. Some enjoy a sense of community through their religion, perhaps find a moral guidance. > > Do unto others etc…isn’t a bad philosophy to live by. > > I’m not talking about extremist terrorists. Just your everyday law abiding person of whatever religion, that thinks there is a magic giant in the sky. > > At what point do we get to say, uh no, there isn’t a magic giant in the sky. This is what I miss most about Thailand. There is a total absence of religious pushiness. Buddhists never try to force their beliefs on you. It is heaven. Here in Hawaii, missionaries had a major influence in the 19th century, and the fundamentalist missionary mindset predominates to this day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=20)