# Why do we have to put up with Religious People? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474 "2020-08-07T06:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/723 "2020-09-09T23:48:07Z")
You seem to have forgotten the first commandment. All the ones you listed have good secular justifications and thus are good rules to live by. How about the first. And if we didn’t covet our neighbor’s goods capitalism would collapse. That might not be a good one to live by. Being quiet about it, maybe. And there is of course the good Biblical ethics about how to treat slaves. Like those? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2020, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/724 "2020-09-09T23:49:41Z")
No, you have been fooled by the negative. Yes, we _could_ prove that a God exists. (But if one showed up, many would claim he is a alien anyway) But you cant prove that no gods exist. God isnt being “coy”. The idea is that you get to believe or not of your own free will. If God showed up and made you believe, you’d no longer have free choice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/725 "2020-09-10T00:14:28Z")
Umm, that’s exactly what I said. Try reading my post again. I can’t prove the black swan doesn’t exist, but my position that it doesn’t exist can be falsified. I’ve heard the free will argument before. Biblically it doesn’t hold water. Consider the Hebrews during the Exodus. God killed the firstborn. God parted the Red Sea. God gave them manna. Yet they built the Golden Calf. If Satan exists, he certainly knows God exists and yet had the free will to rebel. And Jesus shouldn’t have let anyone know of his resurrection if doing so would eliminate free will. I’m not talking about god forcing my belief - which he could do even without showing up. I’m talking about God showing up as evidence that he exists. I could still choose to not believe, or I could believe but reject god as someone worth following. If the Bible is true he’s have a lot of explaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/726 "2020-09-10T00:34:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Logical contradictions about man made concepts. Like can He make a rock so big he cant lift it? That is just a logical contradiction about being _all powerful._ Not what I meant. Logical contradictions between the combination of all-powerful, all-knowing, and benevolent; combined with the actuality of the world we’re living in. This is getting really off topic for this thread, though. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Dont Murder. > > Respect your father and mother. > > Take a day off. > > Dont steal > > Dont cheat on your spouse. > > Dont perjure against your neighbor. > > Do any of this boards atheists think we should dump these just because there are part of the Ten C? I don’t think anybody’s been claiming we have to refuse to do anything just because somebody, somewhere, has a religious reason to do it. I doubt there’d be anything at all we could do; not even sit still and die. I will comment on a couple of those: ‘respect your father and mother’ means a whole lot of different things to a whole lot of people, and seriously abusive parents are not worth respecting. While I think taking a day off is a good idea, I certainly don’t think it should be mandated in law. > [@DrDeth](#): > > God isnt being “coy”. The idea is that you get to believe or not of your own free will. If God showed up and made you believe, you’d no longer have free choice. People seem all the time to use their free will to refuse to believe things there’s plenty of evidence for. And I very much doubt that religious belief, or the lack of it, has anything to do with free will, at least in any sense of conscious choice. People lose their faith who didn’t want to lose it. And, aside from the difficulty of deciding which of hundreds or thousands of sects to join, I really don’t think I could wake up tomorrow morning and just ‘choose’ to believe in any of them. I could wake up tomorrow morning and decide to go to church, sure. But that’s not the same thing. So, if there’s a God of the sort who cares whether humans believe in them, and who also is the God who made humans: then that God has made me so I can’t believe in them without clear evidence. Getting annoyed at me, let alone punishing me, for then not believing without evidence that said god refuses to provide, does not strike me as either wise or benevolent. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/727 "2020-09-10T00:53:36Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > > I do have some religious beliefs that I do my best to impose on everyone, though. For example, I believe that the taking of human life is in almost every circumstance is wrong > > That can also be defended on secular grounds. There are plenty of atheists who hold that belief. Just because it can doesn’t mean the person holds those beliefs. Which means the religious person is constructing a secular argument for a position they hold - which you didn’t seem interested in having them do. > [@](#): > > > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > > > should I keep my mouth shut because my reasons are religious, while another person may agitate for abolition because his/her reasons are purely secular? > > Do you think that if you weren’t religious you wouldn’t hold that position? > > Genuinely curious about that. Is the only reason you’re opposed to humans killing other humans because you believe that God said not to? I can’t speak to @Saintly_Loser but when I was an atheist I was pro death penalty, whereas as a Christian I am anti death penalty. And I attribute the change solely due to religious reasons (whereas I can probably say I had religious and secular reasons from going from an atheist who was anti single payer healthcare to a religious person who is pro single payer healthcare) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/728 "2020-09-10T01:05:02Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > when I was an atheist I was pro death penalty, whereas as a Christian I am anti death penalty. Interesting. I’m an atheist\* who’s against the death penalty. And there seem to be plenty of Christians who are in favor of it. \*For most common definitions of God, anyway. I’m agnostic about the rest of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/729 "2020-09-10T02:44:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have no idea of how many _“atheists who positively believe that the Abrahamic God doesn’t exist”_, but the number is significant, some have posted here. It may be a small %, but they are quite vocal in their prosetlying. > > But yes, you are correct, that statement is unfalsifiable I’ve gone back and skimmed this thread, and the only self-described atheist I can find in it who’s said anything close to “I believe that no gods exist” is the OP. You understand there’s a distinction between saying “I believe no gods exist” and saying - even vociferously saying - “I don’t believe gods exist”, right? As far as proselytizing, some atheists do. Most don’t. There’s no mandate for atheists to “spread the Gospel”. I encourage you to head over to [patheos.com](http://patheos.com)’s [Nonreligious](https://www.patheos.com/nonreligious) page, which has links to various atheist blogs. Some are arguments against theism or Christianity, but most are about violations of church-state separation, politics, or the abuses of toxic Christianity. That might count as “proselytizing” in your eyes, but pointing out the flaws of various Christian groups, or attempts to undermine the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is not necessarily advocating for atheism. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/730 "2020-09-10T03:10:45Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > > when I was an atheist I was pro death penalty, whereas as a Christian I am anti death penalty. > > Interesting. > > I’m an atheist\* who’s against the death penalty. And there seem to be plenty of Christians who are in favor of it. > > \*For most common definitions of God, anyway. I’m agnostic about the rest of them. Yes, people come to positions in different ways, which includes people coming to progressive positions through their religious faith. ---
**Author:** ![Grey4791](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grey4791/32/4042_2.png) [@Grey4791](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey4791)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/731 "2020-09-10T09:41:40Z")
Frankly, atheists do not offend me in the slightest that they do not share my beliefs. They have the right to believe that a degree from a University of like minded, spiritually blinded, echo chambers make them iintellectually superior to the point of arrogance. I simply nod my head, respect their POV, and pity them. There is no sense in conversing with people who will mock and jeer. I know some lovely, atheist/agnostic people. Unless they respectfully ask questions of genuine interest in regards to my faith, I treat them as I would like to be treated. I find it humorous that there are individuals who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have proved there is no Divine Creator. I am certain they are equally amused regarding my faith in my Savior and His mercy, grace,and love. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/732 "2020-09-10T09:44:47Z")
> [@Grey4791](#): > > Frankly, atheists do not offend me in the slightest that they do not share my beliefs. They have the right to believe that a degree from a University of like minded, spiritually blinded, echo chambers make them iintellectually superior to the point of arrogance. I simply nod my head, respect their POV, and pity them. Yeah, you don’t seem to be offended one little bit. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/733 "2020-09-10T11:02:13Z")
I find it humorous that there are individuals who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have proved there is no a Divine Creator . . . despite the amazing lack of actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/734 "2020-09-10T11:59:48Z")
Spiritually blinded?! That’s a good one. But don’t worry, God will forgive you for judging others. Or so I’ve been told. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/735 "2020-09-10T13:30:53Z")
Clearly Grey was talking about specific types of atheist people (those who are arrogant in those beliefs) And then we get 3 defenders, someone struck a nerve. ---
**Author:** ![urbanredneck2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5f8ce5/32.png) [@urbanredneck2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urbanredneck2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/736 "2020-09-10T13:38:35Z")
Well if it wasnt Christian or Moslem, or Hindu or any of the other main religions there would be another like Wicca or New age. Thing is humans WANT a connection to… I dont know what to call it. God? The universe? The other side? Nature? I mean look at all the people who flock to places like in the desert where they think some sort of supernatural power is or who spend money on native american items or money on crystals or go to tarot readings or psychics or people who claim to be able to talk to the dead or do yoga and meditation. It will happen. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/737 "2020-09-10T14:43:28Z")
> [@Grey4791](#): > > atheists do not offend me in the slightest that they do not share my beliefs. They have the right to believe that a degree from a University of like minded, spiritually blinded, echo chambers make them iintellectually superior to the point of arrogance. Oh, good grief. > [@Grey4791](#): > > I am certain they are equally amused regarding my faith in my Savior and His mercy, grace,and love. Imagining what’s in other people’s heads can be fun; but mistaking it for what’s actually in there is generally, ah, a mistake. > [@urbanredneck2](#): > > Thing is humans WANT a connection to… I dont know what to call it. God? The universe? The other side? Nature? That’s certainly true. The religious impulse is built into most humans; and so is the need for ritual. But not even everybody who has the impulse believes in God; sometimes not even when they’re following the rituals. It’s possible to understand that something is important for humans, even important for oneself, while understanding also that the form it’s put into is something that humans made up. Trying to explain that from another direction: the need among humans for both private and group ritual is reality. The fact that many humans want to believe there’s Somebody in charge, and not only Somebody but Somebody who’s looking out for humans in particular and providing rules, is also reality. But neither of those things means that the Somebody is real. It only means that a lot of us want the Somebody to be real; which is not at all the same thing. And it’s possible to respect the role of religion in the structure of other peoples’ lives, and to respect those people as individual humans, without believing their beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/738 "2020-09-10T23:00:08Z")
> [@Grey4791](#): > > Frankly, atheists do not offend me in the slightest that they do not share my beliefs. They have the right to believe that a degree from a University of like minded, spiritually blinded, echo chambers make them iintellectually superior to the point of arrogance. As opposed to universities with vast amounts of differing opinions, like, say Liberty huh? I suspect you get your idea of the university from right wing rants, and have never been near one. > [@Grey4791](#): > > I find it humorous that there are individuals who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have proved there is no Divine Creator. I am certain they are equally amused regarding my faith in my Savior and His mercy, grace,and love. Please point some out to us. There aren’t any such people in this thread. And while you’re at it, please give some evidence for your divine creator, including a good definition. Unless asking for evidence is intellectually arrogant in your book. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/739 "2020-09-11T05:23:48Z")
LSLGuy- calls religion= silly superstition. Bacon\_Cheeseburger Czarcasm has given that opinion before. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/740 "2020-09-11T07:25:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Czarcasm has given that opinion before Did I really say that, or is this another “translation”? ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/741 "2020-09-11T13:32:27Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Do you think that if you weren’t religious you wouldn’t hold that position? > > Genuinely curious about that. Is the only reason you’re opposed to humans killing other humans because you believe that God said not to? That’s a really hard question to answer, actually. I have beliefs about the value of life. Those beliefs are fundamental to the way I look at the world. Without those beliefs, would I still think that the taking of life is wrong? Hard to say. I mean, I’d be a different person if I had no religious beliefs. I do know that just about everyone I know is either an atheist or agnostic, and most (not all) of them are, like me, opposed to the death penalty under any circumstances, and most of them are near-pacifists. And most of them of them are in favor of, and work towards (in varying degrees) life-supporting policies like, for example, national health insurance, strong protections in law for labor, affordable high-quality education for all, and the like. As am I. But we get there, sometimes, by different roads. I really don’t see why this would be an issue for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/742 "2020-09-11T17:59:40Z")
You never like to give straight answers, so do you believe beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no God? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=38)