# Why do we have to put up with Religious People? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 7, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474 "2020-08-07T06:20:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/763 "2020-09-12T22:23:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I used a definition of string atheist, which is there in wikipedia. > > But use whatever definition you want. > > No, I am not getting into a "definition of god " hijack. We will use your definition, that’s fine. I assume a string atheist has no belief in string theory. Anyhow, congratulations on demonstrating that your position is intellectually bankrupt. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/764 "2020-09-12T22:35:29Z")
I remember only dimly, but Michael Scriven, in his book “Primary Philosophy,” put together a “Basic God.” A fairly standard “Nice Big Sky Guy” without infinite attributes, but who was more powerful than anyone else, knew more than anyone else, and had a “good” moral code. He might or might not have created the universe; he might or might not judge souls to appropriate afterlives. Scriven “defined” this God for purposes exactly like this thread. I do not believe in this God, but I do not reject it as logically self-contradictory. I just see no more evidence for it than for Zeus or Odin, or, indeed, Elbereth, whom we _know_ is fictional. (I’m a “string agnostic,” as I think String Theory might be true. Kinda hope so, anyway: it’s pretty!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/765 "2020-09-12T22:47:03Z")
There are gods that have so many attributes and/or claims about them that they become self-contradictory, there are gods that are so vague that it doesn’t really matter if they exist or not, and there are gods that are some combination of the two. What all gods (to date) have in common are a lack of evidence pointing to their existence, leading me to not caring enough about them to believe or disbelieve unless pressed by insecure religionists to give an opinion one way or the other about their particular God-Of-Choice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/766 "2020-09-12T22:49:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I’m a “string agnostic,” as I think String Theory might be true. Kinda hope so, anyway: it’s pretty!) There’s the problem in a nutshell. I think string theory might be true also. In fact I based the advanced technology in an sf story around it. But I’m a weak string atheist - I have no belief in string theory, lacking experimental evidence, but I don’t believe that it is not true. If however you think the experiments that would be needed to demonstrate string theory are impossible (as opposed to being well beyond our current abilities) being a string agnostic is fine since we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/767 "2020-09-12T23:11:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If however you think the experiments that would be needed to demonstrate string theory are impossible (as opposed to being well beyond our current abilities) being a string agnostic is fine since we’ll never know. Yep! Of course, if we could _prove_ that no experiment can ever confirm the theory, that’s cutting very, very close to _disproving_ the theory. If you could _prove_ “No one will ever know if there is a God,” that doesn’t really differ, operationally and functionally, from “There is no God.” In information theory, it would be a little like _proving_ that a given code can never be broken. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/768 "2020-09-12T23:24:27Z")
@DrDeth: 1. Do you believe that unicorns currently exist? 2. If not, and you were presented with one, would you change your mind as to whether they exist? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2020, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/769 "2020-09-12T23:28:12Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Do you believe that unicorns currently exist? Hey, I’ve seen one! “Living Unicorn Project.” Cute little booger! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/770 "2020-09-13T02:14:43Z")
why, because i refuse to play “silly buggers”? It is “strong” not “string”. Making fun of typoes is frowned upon here, and is a intellectually bankrupt position. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/771 "2020-09-13T02:16:32Z")
Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/772 "2020-09-13T02:22:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is “strong” not “string”. > > Making fun of typoes is frowned upon here, and is a intellectually bankrupt position. It is? Have you been reading the same board as I? I was pleasantly surprised at how some posters took your typo and ran with it in a direction that was actually relevant to the topic under discussion. On the other hand, I don’t think there’s much to be gained by you continuing to challenge others over what they do or do not profess to believe. No one’s on trial for heresy here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/773 "2020-09-13T02:54:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@Grey4791](#): > > > > Individuals who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have proved there is no Divine Creator. I am certain they are equally amused regarding my faith in my Savior and His mercy, grace,and love. > > Please point some out to us. There aren’t any such people in this thread. This was the post under discussion, and as i pointed out there are at least three such people in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/774 "2020-09-13T05:32:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If you could _prove_ “No one will ever know if there is a God,” that doesn’t really differ, operationally and functionally, from “There is no God.” But of course God can prove his existence. (In a weak sense of prove, of course.) If God changed the stars to write a message to us, confirmed by astronomers, that would do it for me. We can’t prove there are no gods, of course, God being shy is not an indication that a proof of his existence is impossible. In fact a god would know exactly what we would need for a proof - and be able to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/775 "2020-09-13T05:39:30Z")
[quote=“DrDeth, post:773, topic:917474, full:true”] > [@Voyager](#): > > > [@Grey4791](#): > > > > > Individuals who know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have proved there is no Divine Creator. I am certain they are equally amused regarding my faith in my Savior and His mercy, grace,and love. > > > [/quote] > > > > > > Please point some out to us. There aren’t any such people in this thread. > > This was the post under discussion, and as i pointed out there are at least three such people in this thread. A belief that there is no god is quite different from a claim that we know there is no god, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Can this really be so difficult to understand. My little joke, made because I was bored with waiting for a response from you (and I knew full well what you meant) did lead to an interesting discussion of agnosticism. I may be a strong atheist about gods, but I’m a weak one about string theory. Let’s go back to ETs. I may believe that some exist, since it is a big universe, but point me to a particular star and I’ll tell you that I lack belief that aliens exist around it. But I have no reason to believe that they don’t, unless it is a type of star unlikely to have habitable planets for one reason or another. And I have no knowledge of anything about this. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/776 "2020-09-13T05:43:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Making fun of typoes is frowned upon here, and is a intellectually bankrupt position. That you are now worrying about the intellectual support for a joke means that you maybe should stop digging. It was quite a nice typo, to be sure. A big juicy slowball of a typo. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/777 "2020-09-13T06:58:46Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > @DrDeth: > > 1. Do you believe that unicorns currently exist? > 2. If not, and you were presented with one, would you change your mind as to whether they exist? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you? I’m just going to have to assume that your answers to those questions won’t help your case any, otherwise you would have answered. Your notion that atheists are “hard” atheists (who refuse to ever believe in a god) or “soft” atheists (who admit that there could be a god, but until they experience they don’t believe in it) just doesn’t hold up. Atheists believe what they can observe. If an atheist someday observes a god, they will then believe that a god exists. Virtually no atheist has ever said that if they are faced with an actual visible proven god, they will refuse to believe it. The only people I know who refuse to believe something when faced with overwhelming opposing evidence are religionists. Maybe that’s why you keep clinging to your argument - you’re projecting your own irrationality onto others. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/778 "2020-09-13T17:08:35Z")
It’s not “my notion”, there was a cite. Go fight the cite, tell them they are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/779 "2020-09-13T17:12:58Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I do not believe in this God, but I do not reject it as logically self-contradictory. I just see no more evidence for it than for Zeus or Odin, or, indeed, Elbereth, whom we _know_ is fictional. Can’t remember who they were but I saw a clip of a debate between a theist and an atheist. The latter said, “We’re not so different, you and I – I just believe in one fewer god than you.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/780 "2020-09-13T17:17:07Z")
Moving the goalposts. No one said that even a hard atheist might not accept god if a giant hand reached down and told him to. Somer simple say that they are sure there are no gods. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/781 "2020-09-13T17:45:09Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Your notion that atheists are “hard” atheists (who refuse to ever believe in a god) or “soft” atheists (who admit that there could be a god, but until they experience they don’t believe in it) just doesn’t hold up. Oh… Jeepers, I’m sorry, but that’s actually my view too. There really are different “flavors” of atheists, some very firm and some not so definite. And it isn’t binary, but a broad spectrum of fine shades of insistence. (And, as noted, applying differently to thousands of different proposed Gods.) ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474/782 "2020-09-13T17:53:00Z")
I give up. You cut off the rest of my remarks. You can’t take one sentence out of context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-put-up-with-religious-people/917474.md?page=40)