# Why do we have to take the initiative in the Strait of Hormuz? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818 "2011-12-30T09:16:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/21 "2011-12-31T01:26:33Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Or we can withdraw all our forces from the Persian Gulf and let the Iranians sink a couple of tankers and countries will be throwing money at us to deal with the situation and won’t be too picky about how much force we use. When you are the police, you don’t want people to forget why they need you. And in the mean time, oil is up to $200 a barrel, gas is over $5 a gallon, food prices are rising astronomically, shipping costs are absurd, the US economy is tanking hard and the American people are howling. Sounds like a plan, eh? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/22 "2011-12-31T01:26:42Z")
The French stood up to Hitler? ROFL Right. Hitler’s blitzkrieg rolled through France is less than a week before they gave up. Iran may not have that kind of power. But, really the other Arab countries armies are very poorly trained. There’s a reason Israel kicked their butts in the Six Day war. Iran’s army fought Iraq to a standstill. Iran’s suicide charges against Iraq positions were pretty terrifying from what I read. You really don’t want an army full of religious fanatics getting the idea they can do anything they want. Iran’s equipment may be old but they’ve proven to be tenacious fighters. > [@](#): > > Hitler had 20,000 tanks, and the French and British stood up to him long before “half of Europe was swallowed up”. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/23 "2011-12-31T01:34:51Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The French stood up to Hitler? ROFL Right. Hitler’s blitzkrieg rolled through France is less than a week before they gave up. > > Iran may not have that kind of power. But, really the other Arab countries armies are very poorly trained. There’s a reason Israel kicked their butts in the Six Day war. > > Iran’s army fought Iraq to a standstill. Iran’s suicide charges against Iraq positions were pretty terrifying from what I read. You really don’t want an army full of religious fanatics getting the idea they can do anything they want. Iran’s equipment may be old but they’ve proven to be tenacious fighters. They went to war with him. Perhaps you’re unclear on what “standing up to someone” means. The Six Day War was 44 years ago. The other Arab countries’ armies are now trained by _us_ (and the British), and have much better equipment than Iran. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/24 "2011-12-31T01:39:46Z")
This article about the Iran-Iraq war is an interesting read. Gives an idea just how tough Iran’s army can be. > **[Iran–Iraq War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War)** > > Start of war: > 110,000–215,000 soldiers > KDP: 45,000 Peshmerga (1986–88)PUK: 12,000 Peshmerga (1986–88) The Revolutionary Guardsmen are the ones that did the human wave attacks. From what I’ve read they were effective against the Iraqis. It cost a lot of lives but they were/are pretty fanatical. I’m hoping a show of force in the Strait of Hormuz is all that’s needed. I agree we don’t need another war. Our troops have done enough for awhile. > [@](#): > > For about a year after the Iraqi offensive stalled in March 1981 there was little change in the front, but in mid-March 1982 Iran took the offensive and the Iraqi military was forced to retreat. By June 1982, an Iranian counter-offensive had recovered all the areas lost to Iraq earlier in the war. In Operation Jerusalem launched on 24 April 1982,\* 70,000 Revolutionary Guardsmen using infiltration tactics at night and human wave attacks by day had by 12 May driven all Iraqi forces out of the Susangerd area.\* ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/25 "2011-12-31T01:54:32Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > This article about the Iran-Iraq war is an interesting read. Gives an idea just how tough Iran’s army can be. > [Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War) > > The Revolutionary Guardsmen are the ones that did the human wave attacks. From what I’ve read they were effective against the Iraqis. It cost a lot of lives but they were/are pretty fanatical. > > I’m hoping a show of force in the Strait of Hormuz is all that’s needed. I agree we don’t need another war. Our troops have done enough for awhile. I’m not worried. They’ll drown when they march into the water. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/26 "2011-12-31T02:01:44Z")
The gov’t of Iran is most likely bluffing. A naval war in the Straits of Hormuz would be downright ugly, but the outcome would almost certainly be a US naval victory, provided that the US did everything from a safe distance and mostly with air power. The US would not be unscathed, as previous war games have shown. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/27 "2011-12-31T03:33:58Z")
You have all of those troops coming back from Iraq, plus pressure to bring them home from Afghanistan. All those folks on US soul are going to drive up the unemployment numbers and that will hamper the President’s re-election efforts. We need to defend that area until November ! Any incumbent would say the same in order to ensure a smooth race. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/28 "2011-12-31T09:42:08Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And in the mean time, oil is up to $200 a barrel, gas is over $5 a gallon, food prices are rising astronomically, shipping costs are absurd, the US economy is tanking hard and the American people are howling. > > Sounds like a plan, eh? :dubious: Anyone – anyone at all – have any cites as to how much of our oil goes through the strait? My google-fu is not up to the task. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/29 "2011-12-31T09:46:45Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > Anyone – anyone at all – have any cites as to how much of our oil goes through the strait? My google-fu is not up to the task. It doesn’t have to be our oil. There’s a world wide supply, and if that drops, it gets more expensive for everybody. And if there’s a fear that Iran will cut oil production, or it will be interrupted by war, the price goes up without any actual decrease in supply. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/30 "2011-12-31T10:22:16Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > What I’m saying is, am I alone in thinking this must change? I think Germany and France and Canada should shoulder more of the burden, but they won’t unless we ask. If the Straights are closed, it will increase the price of oil world wide. Canada is a major net exporter of oil. Quite simply, access to oil is your problem, not ours. ---
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/31 "2011-12-31T11:42:53Z")
The US knows who it’s friends are. Even France, which likes to assert it’s own way in foreign matters is going to be behind us 100% if push came to shove. Part of flexing military muscle involves showing others how tough you are. We don’t have to convince Europe of this. They are behind us anyway. But what about other nations. They may look to China, India or Russia for leadership. So we want to show that we’re willing to back up our words with actions. Second is you have to justify the use. How can you afford a military if you aren’t using it. This isn’t so far fetched. We just completed the budget for our company. And what didn’t get used last year was cut. It’s not a political thing, it’s how all businesses work. And government is a form of business. If we want to fund our military we have to show a reason why it should be funded. While we don’t get a lot of our oil from the Arab Gulf, other nations do. If they can’t get it, they will just buy it from the people we get it from now, thus prices go up. Suppose the Netherlands gets it’s oil from the Arab Gulf (This is a suppose, I don’t know where they buy it from), but the Dutch aren’t going to send any military to open up the lanes. But they certainly have money good enough to buy oil from our markets. Thus driving up our prices. We really don’t need help militarily, what we need from other nations is to help bear the cost of funding our military operations. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/32 "2011-12-31T11:59:10Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > What I’m saying is, am I alone in thinking this must change? I think Germany and France and Canada should shoulder more of the burden, but they won’t unless we ask. Canada’s got a pretty good track record of knowing which wars to fight and which wars to skip. WWI - In WW2 - In Korea - In Viet Nam - Skip, don’t tell Coulter. Gulf - In Afghanistan - In Iraq - Skip You could argue that Canada maybe should have skipped Afghanistan, but it’s hard to fault Viet Nam and Iraq, even from this short perspective. I suspect we’d say ‘no thanks’ if we were asked, as this looks like a skip. Plus, can you identify any Canadian strategic interest in the Straits of Hormuz? Really, the US should just buy more Canadian energy and wean itself away from that area entirely. Sure, the oil sands are not as environmentally friendly for extraction, but does that factor in the massive environmental impact of the US projecting its force around the world to protect its oil supply? ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/33 "2011-12-31T12:46:13Z")
It doesn’t matter that the oil moving through the strait doesn’t for the most part end up in the US. If that oil stops moving it will cause shortages that will drive the price of ALL oil upward. This is what is meant by fungibility. Think of it not as one oil well feeding to one customer, but more like all the oil wells feeding into one big tank from which all the customers are supplied. Logistically it doesn’t really work that way, but that is how it works economically. If the level in that big tank starts dropping, then all the customers will have to pay more to the point that demand drops enough to keep the level stable. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/34 "2011-12-31T12:59:54Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > It doesn’t matter that the oil moving through the strait doesn’t for the most part end up in the US. If that oil stops moving it will cause shortages that will drive the price of ALL oil upward. This is what is meant by fungibility. Think of it not as one oil well feeding to one customer, but more like all the oil wells feeding into one big tank from which all the customers are supplied. Logistically it doesn’t really work that way, but that is how it works economically. If the level in that big tank starts dropping, then all the customers will have to pay more to the point that demand drops enough to keep the level stable. Ok, so at that point the gulf states can fight Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/35 "2011-12-31T13:14:09Z")
Some mission creep. The US has been active in keeping oil tankers freely moving through the Gulf for thirty years. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/36 "2011-12-31T13:39:07Z")
> [@SeaCanary](#): > > Anyone – anyone at all – have any cites as to how much of our oil goes through the strait? My google-fu is not up to the task. It makes not one iota of difference if it isn’t our oil. ---
**Author:** ![SeaCanary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SeaCanary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeaCanary)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/37 "2011-12-31T17:47:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It makes not one iota of difference if it isn’t our oil. Why? I recognize that the price of oil will go up in the short term, very possibly even the long term. Then demand will go down unless some of the other oil producing nations decide to step up. So other than that, why do we have to bankrupt ourselves maintaining the largest military on the planet? Is it just because we’ve always done it? Why do we have to flex our muscle in a pissing contest with Iran whom we could squash like a bug if we really wanted to? I think the answer to those questions can be answered very simply. ‘Because the U.S. citizenry wants it. Not just Republicans, not just Democrats, not just libertarians and not just “liberals” or any other subgroup; all of us.’ I suggest that this attitude has to change. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/38 "2011-12-31T17:49:11Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Plus, can you identify any Canadian strategic interest in the Straits of Hormuz? Keeping price of oil high enough to make tar sands oil profitable? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/39 "2011-12-31T17:52:56Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Keeping price of oil high enough to make tar sands oil profitable? Exactly. Ignoring this region is in Canada’s interest. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818/40 "2011-12-31T18:55:18Z")
What is this “our oil” that I keep hearing? It isn’t my oil until I get my oil changed and pay for it and put it in my car. It isn’t my gasoline until I pay for it and put it in my tank. It isn’t “ours” in any communal sense, it belongs to oil companies before that, and frankly I don’t care which oil company or nation sells it into the chain of commerce enough to start another land war in Asia over it. Thing about religious nuts and commies and fascists, is that they will all put oil into the stream of commerce in exchange for green printed pieces of American paper. Wars for oil are only about the profit levels of the oil companies, none of which have any normal human loyalties. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-have-to-take-the-initiative-in-the-strait-of-hormuz/607818.md?page=3)