# Why do we no longer fight fire with fire with Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527 "2014-11-03T16:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/21 "2014-11-03T18:44:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Or at least, that’s what the Kremlin propaganda office says. Is this really in dispute? We have [leaked phone conversations](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/10/pers-f10.html) from the US ambassador to Ukraine talking about what leader we’re going to install and how we can best stir up shit to successfully enact a pro-western coup in Ukraine. The government lapdog US media isn’t reporting this, but I was under the impression that anyone who was up to date with the subject knew this. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/22 "2014-11-03T18:56:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Is this really in dispute? We have [leaked phone conversations](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/10/pers-f10.html) from the US ambassador to Ukraine talking about what leader we’re going to install and how we can best stir up shit to successfully enact a pro-western coup in Ukraine. If that isn’t a satire site, it sure reads like one. “Gangsterism…” :Dand here I thought rhetoric like that was gone from the world (outside North Korea). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/23 "2014-11-03T19:01:52Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Is this really in dispute? We have [leaked phone conversations](http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/10/pers-f10.html) from the US ambassador to Ukraine talking about what leader we’re going to install and how we can best stir up shit to successfully enact a pro-western coup in Ukraine. > > The government lapdog US media isn’t reporting this, but I was under the impression that anyone who was up to date with the subject knew this. Is the “World Socialist Web Site” for real, or a parody site? It’s so hard to tell sometimes… ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/24 "2014-11-03T19:04:59Z")
Sorry, my bad on the url. I just googled “leaked ukraine us coup phone call” or something like that and grabbed the first link. [Here’s one from the BBC](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26072281). Is it seriously in contention that the US and the west in general were active players in the Ukrainian coup? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/25 "2014-11-03T19:06:19Z")
The idea that the State Department determines who gets power in another country is just nuts, whether it is the Kremlin or the World Socialist Web Site making the claim. The State Department is lucky if it can decide what cafeteria food it will offer next Thursday without convening six study groups on the matter. If you look at the actual conversation (not the opinions offered by Troskyists) it is about having the opposition leaders stick together, as opposed to this Russian conspiracy theory about the US carving up Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/26 "2014-11-03T19:09:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Why should we keep fighting a war that we won? When it comes to power and influence I think there is a broad spectrum of victory. Right now our position is good, but it could be made even better. America’s hard power is mostly uncontested. But not absolute, as we saw when Russia took a part of Ukraine and destabilized another region. Russia still has influence around its borders. I think soft power is the real opportunity for growth. And by this I mean economic and cultural influence as well as the buildup of friendships and shared ideals. Someone will say this cannot be accomplished through war and I agree in the short term. I also believe that memories of past generations fade quickly and over the long-term, we can build allies through military means. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/27 "2014-11-03T19:49:53Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The US, on the other hand, is going to be inevitably hostile to Russia in the near future because of ideological differences . . . What would those be? ISTM the Russian government has no ideology any more but Russian nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/28 "2014-11-03T20:35:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What would those be? ISTM the Russian government has no ideology any more but Russian nationalism. Their only ideology is “What Putin wants!” He makes use of nationalism and Orthodox Christianiy, but it stll all comes down to what that scumbag wants. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/29 "2014-11-03T20:38:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Or Cuba! Russia didn’t overthrow any Cuban government, ever. The Soviets didn’t support (or think much of) Castro until he was well established in power. The Soviet proxy in Cuba was the Communist Party, which was weakly supportive of Batista and opposed Castro’s revolution. (Castro later purged the communist party and took it over, once he was in charge). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/30 "2014-11-03T20:41:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The idea that the State Department determines who gets power in another country is just nuts, whether it is the Kremlin or the World Socialist Web Site making the claim. The State Department is lucky if it can decide what cafeteria food it will offer next Thursday without convening six study groups on the matter. They don’t _determine_, they _influence_, or try to, to the best of their ability. So too (to the best of their ability) do the French, the British, the Russians, and for that matter the Cubans, when they feel like they have something at stake. It’s just that as the most powerful country in the world, America has more influence on other countries’ politics than any of the rest of them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/31 "2014-11-03T20:45:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Russia didn’t overthrow any Cuban government, ever. The Soviets didn’t support (or think much of) Castro until he was well established in power. The Soviet proxy in Cuba was the Communist Party, which was weakly supportive of Batista and opposed Castro’s revolution. (Castro later purged the communist party and took it over, once he was in charge). This might be a news flash for you, but we didn’t overthrow the Ukraine government either…or even offer them much in the way of support while Russia was trying to slice off large chunks of their territory. [QUOTE=SenorBeef] Is it seriously in contention that the US and the west in general were active players in the Ukrainian coup? [/QUOTE] Yeah, I think there is serious contention that the US and the West weren’t active players in the ‘Ukrainian coup’. You can check out earlier threads on this subject if you want to see that not everyone was buying this line. > [@](#): > > The current Russian aggression is largely the result of Western interference in trying to subvert the Ukranian government and to set up a pro-western government. Imagine if Russia was trying to overthrow the government of Mexico to try to set up a pro-Russia government there. The old hard-liners are using it Western interference as a justification to re-arm and to be more aggressive in their foreign policy. Putin couldn’t have said it better himself. 😛 What a load of horseshit though. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/32 "2014-11-03T20:51:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The current Russian aggression is largely the result of Western interference in trying to subvert the Ukranian government and to set up a pro-western government. Imagine if Russia was trying to overthrow the government of Mexico to try to set up a pro-Russia government there. The old hard-liners are using it Western interference as a justification to re-arm and to be more aggressive in their foreign policy. > > As a response to this, you think that the west should further interfere in former Soviet satellite states? > > We poke the bear, the bear roars, and then we say “oh watch out, the bear is roaring, let’s poke it some more!”? > > What purpose does all this serve? Do you just have a war boner? We have no war boner. Throwing our weight around in response to Russian aggression before it becomes a war/no war scenario is the opposite of a war boner. We prevent war by showing strength. We encourage war by allowing them to get to the point where the next step is invading a NATO country where we MUST go to war. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/33 "2014-11-03T21:45:45Z")
Because the Cold War was thoroughly, endemically, spectacularly _stupid_. On every front, and in every aspect. Like, seriously. For real. [QUOTE=SenorBeef] The current Russian aggression is largely the result of Western interference in trying to subvert the Ukranian government and to set up a pro-western government. [/QUOTE] lolwut ? > [@](#): > > Is it seriously in contention that the US and the west in general were active players in the Ukrainian coup? … what coup ?! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/34 "2014-11-03T22:13:39Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Because the Cold War was thoroughly, endemically, spectacularly _stupid_. On every front, and in every aspect. > > Like, seriously. For real. As opposed to what - “Hey, Moscow, if you want West Germany, it’s yours?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/35 "2014-11-03T22:30:24Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > They don’t _determine_, they _influence_, or try to, to the best of their ability. So too (to the best of their ability) do the French, the British, the Russians, and for that matter the Cubans, when they feel like they have something at stake. It’s just that as the most powerful country in the world, America has more influence on other countries’ politics than any of the rest of them. You previously said that the US was talking about what leader we were going to “install” and how to “stir up shit” to generate a coup. Seems to me like you’re backing off the idea that we were “installing” a leader, but I’d sure like you to say that yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/36 "2014-11-03T22:44:54Z")
Putin’s been remarkably frank with his position in his recent speech to the Valdai international discussion club. Here’s a [full translation.](http://valdaiclub.com/valdai_club/73300.html) It also includes a translation of the question and answer session that followed. Basically Putin argues that since the cold war the US has engaged in aggressively promoting it’s self interest at the expense of all other nations and to the detriment of the international institutions established post World War II. He sees this as a dangerous path and leading to great instability and conflict. I find this answer to a question form Seumas Milne particularly interesting: > [@](#): > > VLADIMIR PUTIN: Russia has never altered its position. We are a country with a traditional focus on cooperation and search for joint solutions. This is first. > > Second. We do not have any claims to world leadership. The idea that Russia is seeking some sort of exclusivity is false; I said so in my address. We are not demanding a place under the sun; we are simply proceeding from the premise that all participants in international relations should respect each other’s interests. We are ready to respect the interests of our partners, but we expect the same respect for our interests… > > All the rules governing international relations after World War II were designed for a bipolar world. True, the Soviet Union was referred to as ‘the Upper Volta with missiles’. Maybe so, and there were loads of missiles. Besides, we had such brilliant politicians like Nikita Khrushchev, who hammered the desk with his shoe at the UN. And the whole world, primarily the United States, and NATO thought: this Nikita is best left alone, he might just go and fire a missile, they have lots of them, we should better show some respect for them. > > Now that the Soviet Union is gone, what is the situation and what are the temptations? There is no need to take into account Russia’s views, it is very dependent, it has gone through transformation during the collapse of the Soviet Union, and we can do whatever we like, disregarding all rules and regulations. > > This is exactly what is happening. Dominique here mentioned Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia before that. Was this really all handled within the framework of international law? Do not tell us those fairy-tales. > > This means that some can ignore everything, while we cannot protect the interests of the Russian-speaking and Russian population of Crimea. This will not happen… > > Does Russia aim for any leading role? We don’t need to be a superpower; this would only be an extra load for us. I have already mentioned the taiga: it is immense, illimitable, and just to develop our territories we need plenty of time, energy and resources. > > We have no need of getting involved in things, of ordering others around, but we want others to stay out of our affairs as well and to stop pretending they rule the world. That is all. If there is an area where Russia could be a leader – it is in asserting the norms of international law. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/37 "2014-11-03T23:12:19Z")
Some interesting perspectives from Garry Kasparov, [via Twitter](https://twitter.com/Kasparov63). (He is, to put it mildly, no fan of Putin’s - nor of the current response to him.) > [@](#): > > EU/US so eager to avoid confrontation with Putin he could soon have “separatists” starting “civil wars” in a half-dozen other countries. > [@](#): > > From 2000-13 Putin’s survival required being on good business terms with the West. But with nothing left to steal a dictator needs enemies. > [@](#): > > West used to understand that defending other nations, other people against dictatorship was also defending themselves & own way of life. > [@](#): > > The Obama Doctrine: “Do as little as necessary to appear to be doing something without actually committing to a cause or course of action.” > [@](#): > > Obama & most of EU have “anti-paranoia”. (Is there a word for this?!) Pretending you don’t have enemies doesn’t mean you don’t have enemies! ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/38 "2014-11-03T23:27:01Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Some interesting perspectives from Garry Kasparov, [via Twitter](https://twitter.com/Kasparov63). (He is, to put it mildly, no fan of Putin’s - nor of the current response to him.) Kasparov’s remarks aren’t ‘interesting perspectives’, they’re vacuous sound bites. Even by the standards of Twitter, which is an exceptionally low bar. I’m missing where he provides any arguments for his claims. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/39 "2014-11-03T23:29:17Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You previously said that the US was talking about what leader we were going to “install” and how to “stir up shit” to generate a coup. Seems to me like you’re backing off the idea that we were “installing” a leader, but I’d sure like you to say that yourself. I believe it was **SenorBeef** that said that, so I’ll clarify: I don’t think we ‘installed’ the new bunch of ‘leaders’ of the Ukraine. We did our best to influence the situation, but that influence was mostly limited to exhortations, moral support, economic aid and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/40 "2014-11-03T23:33:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You know this, how? My friends and family who were involved in Euromaidan and ensuing events from the very beginning have a very different narrative of events and players than you and **SenorBeef**. They would find your accusations of “Western interference” rather bitterly funny, as they have been rebuffed by the US when they requested help beyond wishy-washy, half-assed kind-of-sort-of lip service from our POTUS. The ravings about Nazis and fascists has been standard-issue Russian propoganda for decades now. It actually makes me feel a bit nostalgic to see that there are still those in the West willing to carry their water. I’m not particularly interested in anecdotes from ‘your friends and family who were involved in Euromaidan’. They’re wrong. If they were involved in Euromaidan, they should be ashamed of themselves for being on the same side as Right Sector, Svoboda, and the ideological descendants of the people who welcomed Operation Barbarossa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527.md?page=3)