# Why do we no longer fight fire with fire with Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527 "2014-11-03T16:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/101 "2014-11-19T10:16:38Z")
Without reading the rest of the thread: Because we are slowly breaking down the same way they did in the 70’s and 80’s. We don’t have it in us to be on top of them, along with everything else we are desperately trying to stay on top of around the world. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/102 "2014-11-19T11:02:44Z")
It seems the main contention here is about the use of other countries as buffer zones. To Russia’s supporters, it’s sensible. To its opponents, it is not. I’m in the camp that believes in eliminating Russia’s buffer zones wherever possible. I’m coming from a position that does not empathize with Russia’s past, or use the US’s past as a counterfactual argument. Under present-day conditions, we are strong and Russia is weak by comparison. Several generations of the nuclear era have come and passed, and shown that direct attacks against the major powers are strongly discouraged, but otherwise small conventional skirmishes can still be waged. Under present conditions, I see no reason not to continue to reduce Russia’s sphere of influence in any way possible. Again, the goal is not to balance out history or play fair. The goal is to turn the balance of power against our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/103 "2014-11-19T12:30:17Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Under present conditions, I see no reason not to continue to reduce Russia’s sphere of influence in any way possible. Again, the goal is not to balance out history or play fair. The goal is to turn the balance of power against our enemies. QFT. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/104 "2014-11-19T19:49:12Z")
> [@Spiny\_Norman](#): > > The former Warsaw Pact members do not remember their years under Moscow’s leadership fondly. They feared - and frankly, not without reason - that while Russia on its own might have trouble returning to superpower status, they’d be quite capable of putting military pressure on smaller neighboring nations. > > If Russia is petrified of skin contact with Western-style nations, that’s Russia’s problem. Which former Warsaw Pact nations? Would they include Romania, Hungary, and Slovakia, which all enthusiastically contributed soldiers to Operation Barbarossa? Of course Barbarossa was a German initiative, but I don’t think those other three countries particularly objected to it. I’d say Russia suffered a lot more at the hands of its western neighbors, in the last hundred years, than they suffered from Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/105 "2014-11-19T19:51:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was nonsense the first time you wrote it and it doesn’t become more sensible when you repeat it. > > I don’t believe Canada or Mexico would have joined the Warsaw Pact if the United States had lost the Cold War. Because they wouldn’t have been afraid of an American invasion. (You’ll notice we didn’t invade Cuba after 1991 when they lost their Soviet ally and were essentially defenseless.) But if Canada or Mexico had decided to join the Warsaw Pact, so be it. They’re sovereign nations and the United States doesn’t have the right to tell them they can’t join an alliance if they want to. We don’t claim these countries belong to us the way you’re claiming Russia’s neighbours belong to Russia. The United States _did_ try an invasion of Cuba in the early 1960s, we’ve used various other means to subvert their government since then, and when other countries in the region turned in a pro-Soviet direction (Nicaragua, for instance) the United States used every means short of actual invasion to undermine them. I don’t believe for a minute that the United States would have tolerated a Warsaw Pact country on its borders. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/106 "2014-11-19T19:53:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > These countries didn’t want to be Russia’s buffer zone And now, Donetsk and Lugansk don’t want to be part of the failed state called The Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/107 "2014-11-19T20:53:56Z")
It is Ukraine. “The Ukraine” is, at best, an outdated term. It is one that is much favored by Russian apologists, though. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/108 "2014-11-19T21:30:17Z")
Consider bringing something other than repeating “Russian apologists” and “HIGH FIVE BRO AMERICA FUCK YEAH +1” to the thread. Like a point or an argument. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/109 "2014-11-20T00:38:50Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > This. And this. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/110 "2014-11-20T00:40:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It is Ukraine. “The Ukraine” is, at best, an outdated term. It is one that is much favored by Russian apologists, though. I don’t know that we can really take “The Ukraine” proponents to task too severely; after all, the whole of the Russian language doesn’t use the definite article. Of course, in Soviet Russia… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/111 "2014-11-20T00:48:14Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I’m not claiming the neighbors belong to Russia. I’m claiming that a close military alliance with what was formerly the main adversary and still remains the main threat to Russia will influence their foreign policy. That you think Canada and Mexico joining a hypothetically disarmed US wouldn’t affect US foreign policy or military levels is absurd. > > Your view is rather simplistic and lacks nuance. Russia does not need to own countries for the policies and alliances of those countries to affect Russia. And to think that Russia is just a schoolyard bully with no legitimate concerns about the increasing influence of its main threat and instead is just being a dick runs contrary to historical Russian foreign policy concerns. Let’s put all this in the context of Crimea, for instance. Should the USA wink and nod approvingly when Russia annexed Crimea? Say, “Hey, you do your thing, Ukraine’s your neighbor, none of our business?” ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/112 "2014-11-20T03:25:07Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It is Ukraine. “The Ukraine” is, at best, an outdated term. It is one that is much favored by Russian apologists, though. I’m quite aware of the connotations of “The Ukraine” vs. “Ukraine”, and I use “The Ukraine” quite deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/113 "2014-11-20T03:27:59Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > It seems the main contention here is about the use of other countries as buffer zones. To Russia’s supporters, it’s sensible. To its opponents, it is not. > > I’m in the camp that believes in eliminating Russia’s buffer zones wherever possible. I’m coming from a position that does not empathize with Russia’s past, or use the US’s past as a counterfactual argument. > > Under present-day conditions, we are strong and Russia is weak by comparison. > > Several generations of the nuclear era have come and passed, and shown that direct attacks against the major powers are strongly discouraged, but otherwise small conventional skirmishes can still be waged. > > Under present conditions, I see no reason not to continue to reduce Russia’s sphere of influence in any way possible. Again, the goal is not to balance out history or play fair. The goal is to turn the balance of power against our enemies. So in other words morality and fairness have no role in foreign policy, according to you? Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/114 "2014-11-20T03:29:35Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In a perfect world, the borders of Russia and the Moscow city limits would match. In a perfect world, the influence of the “Government of Ukraine” would be limited to a table in a Winnipeg vodka bar and whoever they can get to sit at the table and hear them complain. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/115 "2014-11-20T14:26:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > So in other words morality and fairness have no role in foreign policy, according to you? > > Good to know. According to me, yes. In a world with no actors higher in greater than nations, we must think only in terms of goals and strategy, not good intentions. Even more importantly, the policymakers seem to agree. I will concede that a minimum of moral perception is required to appease the public. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/116 "2014-11-20T14:50:46Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Consider bringing something other than repeating “Russian apologists” and “HIGH FIVE BRO AMERICA FUCK YEAH +1” to the thread. Like a point or an argument. I’ll consider it when you bring more than “poor Russia!” to the table. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/117 "2014-11-20T14:54:24Z")
I have made an extensive argument with several cohesive ponts. You have not responded to any of those points, nor have you contributed anything else to the thread. You are lying right now when you try to summarize my argument in an obviously false way. You are not only failing to contribute, but actively sabotaging the level of discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/118 "2014-11-20T15:00:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I have made an extensive argument with several cohesive ponts. You have not responded to any of those points, nor have you contributed anything else to the thread. You are lying right now when you try to summarize my argument in an obviously false way. You are not only failing to contribute, but actively sabotaging the level of discourse. That’s one way of looking at what you wrote. None of it, on any closer level of analysis than “gee, he sure used a lot of words,” amounts to more than “poor Russia.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/119 "2014-11-20T15:09:52Z")
It’s obvious to everyone at this point, even those who happen to be on your side in this, what you are. You will get no more response from me. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/120 "2014-11-20T15:15:09Z")
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