# Why do we no longer fight fire with fire with Russia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2014, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527 "2014-11-03T16:36:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/161 "2014-11-24T02:16:07Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. South Korea’s independence is (in part) secured by American troops, that doesn’t make South Korea any less than an independent country. Which is largely due to their having a functioning economy. The areas in discussion under Russian influence simply don’t have much of an economy outside Russian assistance. To compare them to South Korea is pretty ridiculous. The rest of your post pretty much backs up that the folks currently revolting in Ukraine don’t have much to bind them together. It’s a mess over there, and it most likely wouldn’t be a violent mess without the help of Putin and pals. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/162 "2014-11-24T02:17:17Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > LOL. It would take most of the night to respond to this. You surely can’t be so ignorant of world affairs? Anyway, try this one for starters: > > [Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone) What part of that action continued to be against Russia after the end of the cold war? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/163 "2014-11-24T02:27:29Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Which is largely due to their having a functioning economy. The areas in discussion under Russian influence simply don’t have much of an economy outside Russian assistance. To compare them to South Korea is pretty ridiculous. > The rest of your post pretty much backs up that the folks currently revolting in Ukraine don’t have much to bind them together. It’s a mess over there, and it most likely wouldn’t be a violent mess without the help of Putin and pals. The areas in question are _richer than the Ukrainian average_. One of the two oblasts in question is the second or third richest in Ukraine after Kiev. This is the industrialized, more prosperous region of Ukraine, as distinct from the relatively backward agricultural west. To say they ‘don’t have a functioning economy’ is ridiculous, although it was certainly functioning better before the Galicians started shelling their factories. As for what they have to bind them together, like I said, they’re united what they oppose. What they dislike is somewhat vague but it seems to include, in no particular order: free market capitalism, liberal democracy, secularism, and Western European hegemony (which sort of unites the other three). The monarchists and communists have in common that they dislike _liberalism_, and they think that their best bet at an antiliberal order is under Russian protection. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/164 "2014-11-24T02:42:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The areas in question are _richer than the Ukrainian average_. One of the two oblasts in question is the second or third richest in Ukraine after Kiev. This is the industrialized, more prosperous region of Ukraine, as distinct from the relatively backward agricultural west. To say they ‘don’t have a functioning economy’ is ridiculous, although it was certainly functioning better before the Galicians started shelling their factories. The “areas in question” I was referring to are Abkhazia, Transnistria and South Ossetia. The areas you are referring to are still part of Ukraine. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > As for what they have to bind them together, like I said, they’re united what they oppose. What they dislike is somewhat vague but it seems to include, in no particular order: free market capitalism, liberal democracy, secularism, and Western European hegemony (which sort of unites the other three). The monarchists and communists have in common that they dislike _liberalism_, and they think that their best bet at an antiliberal order is under Russian protection. Yes, so when they no longer have a “liberal oppressor” to bind against, what will they agree on? ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/165 "2014-11-24T05:56:57Z")
> [@BOOM](#): > > LOL. It would take most of the night to respond to this. You surely can’t be so ignorant of world affairs? Anyway, try this one for starters: > > [Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone) Good lord, read the first sentence in your cite: > [@](#): > > Operation Cyclone was the code name for the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) program to arm and finance the Afghan mujahideen prior to and during the Soviet war in Afghanistan, from 1979 to 1989. The Cold War ended in 1991. 1991 does not fall between 1979 and 1989. Russia only existed between 1979 and 1989 as a Soviet Federative Socialist Republic as part of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/166 "2014-11-28T05:40:26Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > The “areas in question” I was referring to are Abkhazia, Transnistria and South Ossetia. The areas you are referring to are still part of Ukraine. > > Yes, so when they no longer have a “liberal oppressor” to bind against, what will they agree on? well, then, I’m sure there will be an internal struggle and either Strelkov and his boys, or the communists, will succeed in defeating the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/167 "2014-11-28T05:47:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > They ‘gained influence’ by the use of overwhelming military force. This is such an apologist and slanted view it’s almost comical. Yeah, they were scared to death about what happened to them during WWII (a war they initially joined on Hitlers side of course, since it let them do exactly the same thing their great post war fear let them do…crush and dominate their neighbors and extend their empire. Didn’t work out so well for them though)…that’s hardly an excuse though. > > We DID reassure them…multiple times. for years. And, of course, when they were really down and out we, you know, didn’t do a fucking thing to them, didn’t attack them, and even tried to include them in world politics and through trade. Their neighbors, however, were fucking scared shitless of just what’s happening now and in some cases have asked most earnestly to be let into NATO and the EU to protect themselves from the playful and peaceful intent of their Russian friends. > > Horse. Shit. > > Again, pure bullshit. The president of the Ukraine did a 180 on his campaign promises, and when his people protested he fucking had his military shoot them down like dogs. And when they pushed back he fucking bolted back to his masters. WE didn’t do shit or influence a gods damned thing (and by this WE I mean either the US or our Euro-buddies). We did pretty much fuck all to help the people of the Ukraine except some rather vague mouthings and timid support…and for a country that WE fucking helped to disarm so the Russians could do this very thing to them. > > Blah blah…Russian sunshine up the ass propaganda bullshit and basic apologist handwavage. Man, this kind of thing serious makes me sick. We could have had an era of peace and prosperity all right if the fucking Russians (a.k.a. Putin and those who think the good old days of the Soviet Union were rose colored) kept their dicks in their pants and decided to act in a civilized way and play nice and be good neighbors. There is zero reason for the Russians to be trying to piece back together their old empire at this point except Putin’s ego and ambitions and those who want the good old days of the Soviet Union to come back. And those willing to apologize and hand wave away what Russia is actually doing, or trying to do. ‘Shoot them down like dogs’? Given that the Maidan clowns were behaving much worse than dogs (dogs at least understand something about obedience, and loyalty) I’d say ‘shooting them like dogs’ was a lot better than they deserved. These jokers preferred to throw ‘protests’ and get their faces on TV than go back to work and obey their government. Yanukovych should have responded by slapping them around till they learned a lesson, and it’s unfortunate that he responded too little, too late. In the ‘good old days of the Soviet Union’, the Maidan protesters would have been shipped off to a labor camp. Then again, the collapse of the Yanukovych government offered an opportunity for Donetsk and Lugansk to break away for good, so I can’t say it was entirely a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/168 "2014-11-28T06:30:52Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’m quite aware of the connotations of “The Ukraine” vs. “Ukraine”, and I use “The Ukraine” quite deliberately. The connotation is that you do not respect the autonomy of Ukraine. You believe they are entirely owned by Russia, and not a country in their own right. That does not seem to agree with what else you have said in this thread, where you have argued that specific regions should be able to become independent nations. The other implication, of course, is that you want to be offensive to Ukrainians. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/169 "2014-11-28T14:38:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > ‘Shoot them down like dogs’? > > Given that the Maidan clowns were behaving much worse than dogs (dogs at least understand something about obedience, and loyalty) I’d say ‘shooting them like dogs’ was a lot better than they deserved. These jokers preferred to throw ‘protests’ and get their faces on TV than go back to work and obey their government. Yanukovych should have responded by slapping them around till they learned a lesson, and it’s unfortunate that he responded too little, too late. In the ‘good old days of the Soviet Union’, the Maidan protesters would have been shipped off to a labor camp. Then again, the collapse of the Yanukovych government offered an opportunity for Donetsk and Lugansk to break away for good, so I can’t say it was entirely a bad thing. See, purely for rhetorical purposes it might be a bit better for your arguments if you at least _pretended_ not to be a full-on Russian authoritarian. Though I personally do appreciate your refreshing honesty (I suspect many of your fellow-apologists are the same, but would rather disguise the fact), it tends to undermine your points. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/170 "2014-11-28T23:38:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The connotation is that you do not respect the autonomy of Ukraine. You believe they are entirely owned by Russia, and not a country in their own right. > > That does not seem to agree with what else you have said in this thread, where you have argued that specific regions should be able to become independent nations. > > The other implication, of course, is that you want to be offensive to Ukrainians. Of course they have the right to be their own country. They don’t, on the other hand, have the right to my respect or concern for their feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527/171 "2014-11-28T23:44:37Z")
…and yet, somehow, they manage to continue on without your approval. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-no-longer-fight-fire-with-fire-with-russia/703527.md?page=8)