# Why do we not have resources for people like Robin Williams? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616 "2014-08-15T16:30:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/21 "2014-08-16T14:44:08Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Do people who are demonstrably in their right minds want to kill themselves, absent a painful and humiliating terminal disease? As others have noted, a ‘requirement’ that a person’s condition be “terminal” seems misguided and unfair. In fact, Parkinson’s Disease is a good counterexample to those criteria. First, to be clear, Parkinson’s does [shorten life expectancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_disease#Prognosis). Of greater importance, though, is the profound effect that it can have on one’s quality of life. Every meal can be a struggle - every swallow can lead to choking and the terror, pain, and panic that ensues. One’s every movement must be calculated and anticipated - spontaneous gestures, especially the dynamically changing and often subtle facial movements that we use to signal how we feel, or to provide emphasis, are no longer possible (‘mask-like face’). People misinterpret what you are saying (if they can even hear you through the mumble that is now your speech). Bathing, crapping? Only with the help of others (with constipation, yes, so “comical”, reaching the point of being life-threatening). Everything we take for granted about walking, talking, eating, crapping, all of it can disappear. Is that not sufficiently horrible? No, some will insist that the disease must also lead inexorably to death in order to justify a voluntary end to the suffering (whether by suicide or assisted death). Just another torment to those afflicted with this horror. I see people with Parkinson’s nearly every day and nearly every day I wonder whether they regret not taking matters into their own hands when they still had the means. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/22 "2014-08-16T15:09:20Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Also, it’s quite common for those suffering life-changing injuries like spinal cord injuries to suffer from _severe_ depression in the initial few months or even years following the injury. I’ve known (and do know) newly-injured quadriplegics and paraplegics who want nothing but to die. I myself dealt with similar feelings after my injury. If there existed legal, easy access to suicide, many newly-injured people would die who otherwise would come to terms with their injuries and once again embrace life. IIRC, by the time you joined these boards you were already in phase three, “royally pissed off at the world”. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/23 "2014-08-16T15:23:24Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > As others have noted, a ‘requirement’ that a person’s condition be “terminal” seems misguided and unfair. In fact, Parkinson’s Disease is a good counterexample to those criteria. I didn’t say “requirement”. I didn’t say anything similar to “requirement”. I said **Anaamika’s** proposal is far too vague and wide-ranging, that depressed people shouldn’t be helped with killing themselves on a whim, and that I agree that people with debilitating, terminal illnesses should be given the option. There are plenty of other situations I have expressed no opinion on as far as the ethics of assisted suicide go, and Parkinson’s Disease is one of them. > [@KarlGauss](#): > > First, to be clear, Parkinson’s does [shorten life expectancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_disease#Prognosis). [Not](http://www.pdf.org/en/science_news/release/pr_1236276046) [significantly](http://www.parkinsons.org.uk/content/how-does-parkinsons-progress). ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/24 "2014-08-16T16:35:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > IIRC, by the time you joined these boards you were already in phase three, “royally pissed off at the world”. Um, no. Airplanes, maybe. The world? Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/25 "2014-08-16T17:47:26Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I see people with Parkinson’s nearly every day and nearly every day I wonder whether they regret not taking matters into their own hands when they still had the means. The problem with the disability issue is that different people have different tolerances for disability. What on person finds intolerable another finds mostly annoying. There are some severely disabled people who very, very much want to live and others who cannot tolerate what seems to others to be a minor problem. I live every day with a man who has been disabled from birth, has chronic pain, and as he ages becomes more impaired BUT who _very much wants to continue living_. He’d rather not be disabled and in pain, but he doesn’t feel those drawbacks negate the good parts of his life. For people suddenly disabled, it is entirely normal to go through a period of depression and suicidal thoughts. That’s one reason we don’t automatically grant requests for termination of medical care of people who have, say, just broken their necks. You need to have them recover (as much as possible) and go through rehab, because a lot of folks, particularly if given the resources they need to function, actually wind up wanting to live even after devastating event. My biggest concerns with condoning suicides are first that tolerance might become obligation, pressing some people to kill themselves due to outside pressures, and that people will not exhaust the alternatives prior to killing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/26 "2014-08-16T22:17:10Z")
> [@](#): > > My biggest concerns with condoning suicides are first that tolerance might become obligation, pressing some people to kill themselves due to outside pressures, and that people will not exhaust the alternatives prior to killing themselves. As I understand it, Japan tolerates suicide, so a lot of people kill themselves. Some because they led a company badly or there was a scandal and it allows them to save face, others because of life occurrences. Some of the questions raised are, do the Japanese kill themselves too easily? Do a lot of people who are otherwise functional take themselves out because it’s too easy and accepted or they feel they need to save face? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/27 "2014-08-17T03:47:48Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > \*I did specify “terminal”, and Parkinson’s is not a terminal illness. You know, I don’t think I knew that. I might’ve confused it with ALS. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/28 "2014-08-17T05:35:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Suicidal ideation is an acute symptom of mental illness. \ > > I guess the question comes down to what it means to be in one’s “right mind.” Was Robin? I don’t think so. Your first statement is EXACTLY the problem - we regard suicidal ideation as mental illness. Maybe sometimes it is. Other times it is the result of a completely logical (and sane) analysis. Mr. Williams was a bright fellow - he knew what awaited him as a Parkinson’s victim, and chose not to accept that. I have recently gotten a few pieces of mail from a law office - my BIL has petitioned to be name conservator of my sister. In the filings, he states that she requires assistance: 1. getting in and out of her chair 2. dressing 3. feeding 4. “personal hygiene” - she can’t even crap by herself. She has Parkinson’s and nobody had the courage to help her avoid this situation (not that she would have ever considered suicide - she always thought quite highly of herself (very few others did. I no of none). I suspect Mr. Williams was quite aware of the gory details of his not-to-distant future. Good on you Robin, and a toast to the Dead Poet’s Society. nanu nanu… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/29 "2014-08-17T05:45:43Z")
On the other hand, you have someone like Christopher Reeve who 1. could not get in and out of his wheelchair under his own power at all. 2. could not even turn over under his own power 3. for several years could not even _breathe_ under his own power 4. needed someone to feed him 5. needed someone to wipe his ass 6. etc., etc., etc. who actually _wanted_ to live and even found a way to keep working, socialize, and so forth. It’s not like Robin Williams would be unacquainted with Reeve’s condition and accommodation to it, what with them being close friends and all. So no, having a debilitating condition does not _automatically_ lead one to prefer death. Unless you are a close personal acquaintance of Mr. Williams you can NOT know his views on such things. You are, at best, guessing and probably doing so with a hearty helping of your own bias. Even if Mr. Williams’ Parkinsonism was a factor, he probably had a number of years left where it would not be completely crippling. Why did he choose NOW to kill himself instead of a year from now, or two years, or five? Damn if I know - and you don’t know either. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/30 "2014-08-17T05:58:57Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > I have recently gotten a few pieces of mail from a law office - my BIL has petitioned to be name conservator of my sister. In the filings, he states that she requires assistance: > > 1. getting in and out of her chair > 2. dressing > 3. feeding > 4. “personal hygiene” - she can’t even crap by herself. Why would that require a conservator? I don’t see anything there which indicates she is incapable of making her own decisions. She’s physically frail, not incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/31 "2014-08-17T08:24:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Why would that require a conservator? I don’t see anything there which indicates she is incapable of making her own decisions. She’s physically frail, not incompetent. That was hardly a comprehensive list - I did not go into the cognitive problems and other mental deterioration. The filing stated that she would be in attendance at the hearing so the Judge could do his own appraisal. These are people who wanted to divorce 10 years ago (while she was in early stages). I got some pics of a wedding circa 2010 - she was already physically wasted. I did not get any info on her mental status at the time. She never worked a day in her life, so any wealth she has is due to CA Community Property laws - IOW, her hubby’s money. Which makes his desire to be named Conservator NOT motivated by financial concerns - she has nothing to steal (except maybe Mother’s silver, which she stole 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/32 "2014-08-17T10:38:28Z")
You do realize your dislike for the woman is obvious in your posts? What did she ever do to you to make you dislike her so much? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/33 "2014-08-17T13:36:35Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Do people who are demonstrably in their right minds want to kill themselves, absent a painful and humiliating terminal disease? This seems to be the default position in US culture, and on the Dope – that suicide may be “sane” if the person is in the throws of a nasty terminal illness, but can only be for mental health reasons otherwise. But why do we think like that? Do we think life is great and only in this specific circumstance does the equation change? Or are we saying it always makes sense to “play on” even if our lives have been terrible and our expectation is for more of the same? Consider another scenario. I’ve been captured by terrorists, and have spent the last 5 years being horribly tortured. I’ve been in appalling pain the whole time, and they have given me permanent injuries; they’ve disfigured my face for example. But I know they don’t intend to kill me. Before I got captured I got some advice about how to endure pain, but despite 5 years of trying, it just doesn’t work, and every moment is as horrible as the last. I have a suicide pill in my pocket. If I were to swallow this pill, would that mean I have a mental illness? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/34 "2014-08-17T16:24:46Z")
If I consider human population growth a threat to our ecosystem and finite resources, is it irrational to commit suicide as my way of helping to alleviate the problem? Is it more rational to become a dictator and kill millions? You can’t just say that suicidal thoughts are solely the domain of mental illness like you are some psycho-deity. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/35 "2014-08-17T16:25:03Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Robin should have been allowed to choose suicide. He was 63! He didn’t have young dependents, which is the only time I have a really difficult time with suicide. He had lived his life. Had a successful career. People who loved him. I think a lot of us, when we learned of Robin’s suicide, thought “Oh no. _He shouldn’t have done this._” And not just for selfish reasons, like we want him around to make more movies to entertain us. We thought or felt that there was inherent wrongness or tragedy in the act. > [@](#): > > I think it has got to be based on religion. Seems like every religion has commandments against suicide. In Hindi the word for suicide is either atmahatya, which means " soul-killing", or khud-khushi, which means “self-pleasing”. Not exactly great. And I am pretty sure in Catholicism it is a mortal sin. If every religion does have commandments against suicide, there must be some underlying reason, some principle or value. Just saying “because religion” and leaving it at that begs the question. And I think that underlying value is the idea (which I agree with) that human lives are special and have inherent value, so that it is wrong to snuff one out, whether that one is someone else’s (murder, euthanasia, etc.) or one’s own (suicide). ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/36 "2014-08-17T18:51:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If every religion does have commandments against suicide, there must be some underlying reason, some principle or value. Just saying “because religion” and leaving it at that begs the question. > > And I think that underlying value is the idea (which I agree with) that human lives are special and have inherent value, so that it is wrong to snuff one out, whether that one is someone else’s (murder, euthanasia, etc.) or one’s own (suicide). As I noted up thread, at least two major religions(Jainism and Hinduism), though generally disapproving of the loss of life(of self or others, particularly Jainism), make provisions for suicide by fasting for people who feel they do not want to live anymore and have no responsibilities remaining. And since that (somewhat more nuanced) viewpoint is just as valid as the blanket ‘human lives have inherent value’ statement, I think it’s fair to say the latter is not an underlying principle or value, but it is ‘because religion’. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/37 "2014-08-17T19:11:20Z")
Note that the Hindu and Jainism notion includes _have no responsibilities remaining_, which tends to imply either old age or some definite foresight and planning. That’s quite different than a younger person with family and young children committing suicide. Basically, I’m not aware of _any_ human culture that doesn’t put caveats around the notion of suicide. This actually makes some sense, as a species full of individuals ready to off themselves isn’t likely to survive long term. The vast majority of people do not kill themselves, they die of some other cause. Even the majority of people with terminal illness or crippling conditions do not kill themselves. If no other way than statistically suicide is not the normal way to die even in extreme circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/38 "2014-08-17T20:37:57Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Robin should have been allowed to choose suicide. He was 63! He didn’t have young dependents, which is the only time I have a really difficult time with suicide. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Note that the Hindu and Jainism notion includes _have no responsibilities remaining_, which tends to imply either old age or some definite foresight and planning. That’s quite different than a younger person with family and young children committing suicide. The OP’s claim that “Robin should have been allowed to choose suicide” presupposes that a person’s life belongs to that person himself. This is one view, but it is not the only one. Other views (including but not limited to religious ones) would claim that a person “belongs to” or has responsibilities to God, or to other individuals, or to the community as a whole, or to his own future self; so that to end one’s life is not a decision that should be up to that one person alone. I ran across the following column in today’s paper: [Robin Williams, my brother and the ‘assault’ of suicide](http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/christine_flowers/20140815_Robin_Williams __my_brother_and_the__ assault__of_suicide.html). The whole thing is worth reading, but the parts that seem most relevant here are references to a book I have not read, called _Stay_: > [@](#): > > In her book “Stay,” Jennifer Michael Hecht writes that “the suicidal person owes something to his or her future self; a future self who might feel better and be grateful that the person who he or she once was fought through the terrible times to make it something better.” This is, I think, the saddest part of the whole scenario: the idea that has been commonly bandied about of suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem. > [@](#): > > Over the years, I’ve learned that suicide can be the result of depression, an actual disease that needs to be treated and is now coming out of the shadows of shame. This is good, and necessary. But as Hecht notes in her book, it is also a function of the idea fostered in this post-modernist society that we are individuals with rights, including the inalienable right to end our lives if we want. That sense of obligation to others, John Donne’s conviction that no man is an island, has been lost. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/39 "2014-08-17T20:40:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Note that the Hindu and Jainism notion includes _have no responsibilities remaining_, which tends to imply either old age or some definite foresight and planning. That’s quite different than a younger person with family and young children committing suicide. Sure, but the point is that there isn’t an absolute injunction against the idea of suicide. The provision is heavily qualified, but it exists. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616/40 "2014-08-17T20:56:39Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > In her book “Stay,” Jennifer Michael Hecht writes that “the suicidal person owes something to his or her future self; a future self who might feel better and be grateful that the person who he or she once was fought through the terrible times to make it something better.” This is, I think, the saddest part of the whole scenario: the idea that has been commonly bandied about of suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And what if the future self feels worst and is full of regrets that the person he or she once was didn’t end it when it was still possible? That makes about as much sense as the argument against abortion that says “What if the fetus becomes the new Mozart?”. Not all problems are temporary, and I’m not sure why there are so much people who think that they should have a say in whether someone else’s should live or die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-not-have-resources-for-people-like-robin-williams/695616.md?page=3)