# Why do we see different race at different NFL positions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869 "2008-01-24T21:15:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/41 "2008-01-25T18:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] As I said, it is at best a hypothesis. Hypotheses are made from observations. But that is the beginning of science, not the end. I did not try to claim it was fraudulent. Please do not imply that I said something that I clearly did not. I haven’t made any claims. Please go back and read my post again. I explicitly said that there could be some racial component that is causing the observed phenomenon. [/QUOTE] Fair point on the claims, you have not claimed the hypothesis is incorrect. What I’m not sure of is the end point. You said that you’d be convinced when someone did real scientific tests to prove the hypothesis. I wonder what kind of test a scientist could come up with to prove a race’s dominance in running speed that would be different than taking hundreds of thousands of young men and women, and asking them to run for 100 meters while timing them closely. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/42 "2008-01-25T19:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] What I’m not sure of is the end point. You said that you’d be convinced when someone did real scientific tests to prove the hypothesis. I wonder what kind of test a scientist could come up with to prove a race’s dominance in running speed that would be different than taking hundreds of thousands of young men and women, and asking them to run for 100 meters while timing them closely. [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s the problem. We can’t assume that pro football players represent some random sample from the general population. You wouldn’t need hundred of thousands, though. You’d just need to make sure you were taking random samples and that you had some control over what “race” meant. Afterall, in the US “race” is more about physical appearance than genetic ancestry. Tiger Woods is generally considered to be Black, but he probably only traces 25% of his ancestry to Africa (maybe less). If we went by genetic heritage, he’d be considered Asian-- he’s more that than anything. In the end, you might only be able to reach the conclusion that people of mixed African/European ancestry tend to have better skills at some athletic activities. It’s another issue entirely to ask if some population of Africans (actual Africans, not African-Americans) has a genetic advantage to some population of Europeans. And, of course, it’s not like White Americans represent some genetic population that traces its ancestry to some unique European population, either. Just thinking of myself, the ancestors I have (that I know of) come from all over Europe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2008, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/43 "2008-01-25T19:22:06Z")
For anyone interested, here is a [Scientific American](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=000BD235-1F76-1C75-9B81809EC588EF21&page=1) article (actually a book review) on the subject. The author makes many of the same arguments I have made in this thread. It’s a subject fraught with scientific difficulties, and about which it is easy to jump to unwarranted conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/44 "2008-01-26T00:10:32Z")
[QUOTE=El Zagna] If it can be shown that there are genetic differences between Blacks and Whites that lead to superior performance at the physical level, then that lends support to the claim that there are genetic differences in intelligence, also, and that’s the concept that makes people uncomfortable. Whether or not that is a legitimate leap of logic is debatable, but that’s clearly where the discussion will go next. [/QUOTE] But we are not talking about races in this case. We are talking about populations. Blacks in america, who may be traced to w. african roots, do not represent all blacks. E. africans are not known for their sprinting. Broadening the discussion to include the attributes of all black people in the world is very difficult to do since there are so many varied populations within that group. So a discovery that african americans tend to have genes that give advantage in sprinting events really says nothing about the genetic traits of black people as a whole – and cuts short the leap that you worry about people making. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/45 "2008-01-26T00:32:28Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I don’t think we have the ability to do that. When people trace their ancestry through genetic testing, it generally is done by tracing the paternal line (through the Y chromosome) or their maternal line (through mitochondrial DNA). But that only tells you that one of your great-great-…-great-grandparents came from some general area (with a certain probability). It doesn’t tell you where all the other ancestors came from. And even if we had the technology, most Blacks in the US have been living here for a long time, and they are unlikely to be representative of any existing or past population of Africans (even if you ignore all the European ancestry mixed in). There’s been too much time for everyone to mix it up, so to speak. [/QUOTE] Look, while I appreciate that nothing is “proven” until you obtain empirical evidence to back it up, with a control, it is possible to _know_ something without having it proven. I _know_ that my hot tap is likely to produce warmer water than the cold tap, even though I have no evidence to back that up. I _know_, as a football fan, that there are perhaps three or four players of European descent capable of “deep-threat” speed - ie. a sub-4.4 second 40-yard dash time. I also _know_ that there are at least thirty and probably closer to a hundred players of African or Caribbean descent capable of doing the same thing. Sure, social pressure can explain _some_ of the disparity, but if there’s a white kid at XYZ High who can run a 4.4-second 40 and bench 275 pounds, he’s going to end up playing football most of the time. These kids aren’t not playing football because they’re off running Fortune 500 companies or whatever- _they simply don’t exist_, for the most part. If you have more of the alleles likely to be found in North/West African peoples, you’re more likely to run fast and jump high. That’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/46 "2008-01-26T00:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=El Zagna] Whether or not that is a legitimate leap of logic is debatable, but that’s clearly where the discussion will go next. [/QUOTE] And yet, it need not. Differences in academic and/or intellectual performance are readily explained by social phenomena - American blacks are likely to attend poorer schools, use poorer educational materials, and have fewer role models who clearly demonstrate the value of an education. In fact, the proclivity of African-Americans to excel in sports may hamper their academic achievement most of all; if you live in the projects, you see others who “got out” through sports daily on ESPN, but you’re hardly likely to see other blacks who “got out” through business, beyond, say, Russell Simmons. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/47 "2008-01-26T01:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=misterW] But we are not talking about races in this case. We are talking about populations. Blacks in america, who may be traced to w. african roots, do not represent all blacks. E. africans are not known for their sprinting. Broadening the discussion to include the attributes of all black people in the world is very difficult to do since there are so many varied populations within that group. So a discovery that african americans tend to have genes that give advantage in sprinting events really says nothing about the genetic traits of black people as a whole – and cuts short the leap that you worry about people making. [/QUOTE] Well, sure. Since the OP was about American football, I assume we all are limiting our discussion to American Blacks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/48 "2008-01-26T02:03:14Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Look, while I appreciate that nothing is “proven” until you obtain empirical evidence to back it up, with a control, it is possible to _know_ something without having it proven. [/quote] I’m not sure why you linked to that post of mine for your comment. I was giving a factual answer to someone who asked a question about genetics. > [@](#): > > I _know_ that my hot tap is likely to produce warmer water than the cold tap, even though I have no evidence to back that up. > > I _know_, as a football fan, that there are perhaps three or four players of European descent capable of “deep-threat” speed - ie. a sub-4.4 second 40-yard dash time. I also _know_ that there are at least thirty and probably closer to a hundred players of African or Caribbean descent capable of doing the same thing. > > Sure, social pressure can explain _some_ of the disparity, but if there’s a white kid at XYZ High who can run a 4.4-second 40 and bench 275 pounds, he’s going to end up playing football most of the time. These kids aren’t not playing football because they’re off running Fortune 500 companies or whatever- _they simply don’t exist_, for the most part. Biology, genetics and the physiology of sports is a lot more complicated that you think. Read the link to the Scientific American article in my earlier post. > [@](#): > > If you have more of the alleles likely to be found in North/West African peoples, you’re more likely to run fast and jump high. That’s it. Publish your findings in a scientific journal, and then get back to us on how that went. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/49 "2008-01-26T02:16:58Z")
[QUOTE=stw004] Well…I really don’t want to sound racist but the way my great-grandfather explained it to me was like this. (many years ago) In the olden days people owned slaves. (they were black) It was cheaper to breed new slaves than to buy new ones when the old ones died So since slaves were treated pretty much like livestock it made sense that they would be bred like livestock (if you have bunch of horses and you want to breed the strongest possible offspring than you breed your biggest strongest stud with the biggest strongest mare) After multiple generations of selective breeding you are left with mostly bigger,stronger,faster slaves who can work more efficiently. These slaves eventually became the african-americans we now how have in the united states. So it stands to reason that a larger percentage would have more athletic traits than people of other races (size, strength. speed.) Now granted probably nothing I just said has any scientific or historical merit, and might just be the delusions of an old codger who died when I was 12, but it does present a theory. [/QUOTE] This hasn’t been responded to (probably for good reason), but I do want to dispel the idea that slaves were “bred”. Slave populations had a definitive culture, which included marriage and other traditional familail relationships. The notion that a slave master selected which slaves mated, as if they were livestock, is, at best, ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/50 "2008-01-26T02:30:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Publish your findings in a scientific journal, and then get back to us on how that went. [/QUOTE] Put together an all-white Olympic team and get back to us on how _that_ went. Or better yet, an NFL team. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/51 "2008-01-26T03:43:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Put together an all-white Olympic team and get back to us on how _that_ went. [/QUOTE] The Soviets did pretty well with that for many years. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/52 "2008-01-26T03:44:09Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] For anyone interested, here is a [Scientific American](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=000BD235-1F76-1C75-9B81809EC588EF21&page=1) article (actually a book review) on the subject. The author makes many of the same arguments I have made in this thread. It’s a subject fraught with scientific difficulties, and about which it is easy to jump to unwarranted conclusions. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the link. This really is a complicated issue. ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/53 "2008-01-26T07:33:34Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] The Soviets did pretty well with that for many years. [/QUOTE] Did well in certain sports, yes. Not all. I am not sure how many male Soviet/DDR sprinters won crowns even at the height of the dope-fueled Eastern Bloc Olympics Blitz. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/54 "2008-01-26T15:15:38Z")
I just want to point out that the 8 fastest men on earth lined up last March and raced 60 meters at the World Championship. 2 of those 8 - whittled down from many prior events and races were “white” men. You can watch the race [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SKPb0PyCog&mode=related&search=) (an African American former Steeler wins) & a white man is 3rd. I think this just demonstrates how hard it is to talk about race and who has speed and who doesn’t as a racial group in any meaningful way. It really is a complex thing ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/55 "2008-01-26T17:22:57Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] I think this just demonstrates how hard it is to talk about race and who has speed and who doesn’t as a racial group in any meaningful way. It really is a complex thing [/QUOTE] While this may be a complex thing, it’s not so complex that we can’t talk about it “in any meaningful way.” No one is suggesting that \*all \*blacks are faster than \*all \*whites, but rather that there are group tendencies among certain white populations and certain black populations that give those black populations a competitive advantage. In fact the racial makeup of the event you point to supports and actually extends that claim. The OP was limited to Americans playing an American sport, but here we have a truly international sport, and even then Black participants outnumber white participants 8 to 2. I know that Blacks make up about 12% of the population in America, but I don’t know what their world-wide percentage is. I suspect it’s nowhere near 80%, though. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/56 "2008-01-26T17:52:05Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > If you were going to “scientifically” test how fast people can run, what would be better than the 100M dash, as it’s run in track meets all across the globe? In reply > [@Mace](#): > > What you wrote there is not science-- it’s anecdote. Or, at best, it’s the begining of science. Science is where you make a hypothesis, and then test it. All you’ve done at this point is make a hypothesis. I’ll be convinced when I see some tests done. Real tests, using scientific methods. This is just silly. The technology to measure the speeds of athletes and rigorous controls employed by Olympic officials can not be improved upon by scientists. Tabulation of sport results have yielded a data base that can only be envied by researchers. Following **Mace’s** argument, I suppose we can’t be sure that the cheetah is the fastest animal on earth . We’ll have to genetically test every cheetah to make sure it is a cheetah and run a significant sample of cheetahs against a significant sample of genetically tested animals of every other species of animal. Even then, who’s to say that the tiger might not be the fastest mammal on earth. After all, environment might have slowed down the tiger which learned to run in tall grasslands while the cheetah runs on much shorter grass. Here’s one more point in favour of the physiological advantage of elite black athletes over whites. This is from Jon Entine, the subject of **Mace’s** Scientific American link. > [@](#): > > [Blacks](http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/elsevier.htm) have from 3 to 19% more of the sex hormone testosterone than Whites or East Asians I don’t think there is any argument that suggests that steroids are not an advantage. After all, steroid doping is considered cheating for undue advantage. But just in case, I’ll provide a [reference](http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287623) to two studies measuring the relationship of elite athletic performance and testosterone levels. > [@](#): > > A significant > positive relationship was identified between testosterone > levels and vertical jump performance when all data where > considered (r = 0.61, p \< 0.001, n = 70). > > Serum levels of C and T were in > negative correlation (r= -0.40 and r= -0.49, respectively) > with the results of Cooper’s test. It was concluded that > athletes with better explosive strength and sprint running > performances have a higher basal level of testosterone. The > results suggest a relationship between testosterone production > and development of fast twitch muscle fibres in athletes. I triend to find a more “scientific” link to improve the veracity of the claim that blacks had more testosterone, but all I could come up with are prostate cancer studies claiming that there are no testosterone differences between blackand white prostate cancer patients > [@](#): > > [CONCLUSIONS:](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10604704') Although several studies have suggested that African-American men have higher serum testosterone levels than white men, these differences were noted only in men 40 years of age or younger. As was noted in our study, after age 40, African-American and white men have comparable serum testosterone levels. It seems that during the formative years as well as the age range of elite athletes blacks have higher testosterone levels. Testosterone affects both aggressiveness and physiological characteristics. I don’t think this contributor can be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/57 "2008-01-26T17:52:41Z")
[QUOTE=El Zagna] While this may be a complex thing, it’s not so complex that we can’t talk about it “in any meaningful way.” No one is suggesting that \*all \*blacks are faster than \*all \*whites, but rather that there are group tendencies among certain white populations and certain black populations that give those black populations a competitive advantage. [/QUOTE] Similarly, you have to acknowledge that Chinese people, in general, just don’t make good sprinters. The Chinese athletic talent-spotting programs are brilliant and intensive, but AFAIK no Chinese male has won gold at the Olympics or World Championships in a sprinting event. Given the sheer numbers of Chinese, absent any inherent genetic disadvantage there ought to be at least a few. My own people- Indians- face the same disadvantage. The best athletic talent in India is playing cricket or (field) hockey- niche sports elsewhere- and yet Indian teams don’t dominate these sports. Conversely, you can look at New Zealand, where Maoris (pop. circa 250,000) are vastly outnumbered by the “white” population (a little under 5,000,000), yet make up just under a third of the current 30-man national rugby squad. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/58 "2008-01-26T17:57:38Z")
I agree with the rest of your post, but this… [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Following **Mace’s** argument, I suppose we can’t be sure that the cheetah is the fastest animal on earth . We’ll have to genetically test every cheetah to make sure it is a cheetah and run a significant sample of cheetahs against a significant sample of genetically tested animals of every other species of animal. Even then, who’s to say that the tiger might not be the fastest mammal on earth. After all, environment might have slowed down the tiger which learned to run in tall grasslands while the cheetah runs on much shorter grass. [/QUOTE] …is a really, really bad argument. Cheetahs cannot produce viable offspring with other large cats, even if they were to breed with them (which they don’t). The amount of genetic variation between even human populations which have been isolated from others for 30,000 years would be negligible compared to the amount of genetic variation between, say, cheetahs and lions, which have inhabited the same ranges for at least the span of human existence. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/59 "2008-01-26T18:54:59Z")
I’m making a note to get to the feedstore to get some more straw for you since you must be running out after building those two big strawmen: [QUOTE=El Zagna] While this may be a complex thing, it’s not so complex that we can’t talk about it "in any meaningful way [/QUOTE] I said it is hard to talk about it in any meaningful way [QUOTE=El Zagna] No one is suggesting that \*all \*blacks are faster than \*all \*whites, . [/QUOTE] Yeah including me. The point of the post was to answer people like yourself who were clearly veering toward the blacks as a group are inherently genetically faster than whites as a partial answer to the OP. Were that true there should be **NO** whites in the higher level meets because the whites would always be slower at the elite levels no matter how much training or coaching or equipment they had – the muscle distribution or quick twitch muscle or breeding or whatever genetic sh^t would always win out at the elite level. It would be like trying to train sprinters to win the Kentucky Derby. That clearly isn’t happening anywhere in track at the elite levels. Right ? Is anyone sane going to offer anything different? Clearly there is more going on here & its very complex. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869/60 "2008-01-26T19:03:55Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] The point of the post was to answer people like yourself who were clearly veering toward the blacks as a group are inherently genetically faster than whites as a partial answer to the OP. Were that true there should be **NO** whites in the higher level meets because the whites would always be slower at the elite levels no matter how much training or coaching or equipment they had – the muscle distribution or quick twitch muscle or breeding or whatever genetic sh^t would always win out at the elite level. It would be like trying to train sprinters to win the Kentucky Derby. That clearly isn’t happening anywhere in track at the elite levels. Right ? Is anyone sane going to offer anything different? Clearly there is more going on here & its very complex. [/QUOTE] Um… what? Ridiculous. He’s not saying “all white people are slow”, he’s saying “black people are _more likely_ to be fast”. He clearly referred to a _tendency_, not an absolute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-see-different-race-at-different-nfl-positions/434869.md?page=4)