# Why do we think of Napoleon as silly? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 10, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136 "2008-11-10T23:17:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/61 "2008-11-13T13:46:26Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Unless my history is faulty they defeated Russia. Your history is faulty, I’m afraid. The Russians took their bat & ball and went home after the 1917 Revolution; the Germans didn’t “Defeat” them in the traditional sense of the word. Also, the European part of Russia where the Eastern Front was during WWI doesn’t count as “Asia”, IMHO. Interestingly, the Germans were supplying arms and technical advisors to the Kuomintang during the Chinese Civil War. Didn’t work out real well for either of them in the end. In other words, Monty is right- Don’t get involved in Land Wars in Asia. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/62 "2008-11-13T13:52:16Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Your history is faulty, I’m afraid. The Russians took their bat & ball and went home after the 1917 Revolution; the Germans didn’t “Defeat” them in the traditional sense of the word. > > Also, the European part of Russia where the Eastern Front was during WWI doesn’t count as “Asia”, IMHO. > > Interestingly, the Germans were supplying arms and technical advisors to the Kuomintang during the Chinese Civil War. Didn’t work out real well for either of them in the end. > > In other words, Monty is right- Don’t get involved in Land Wars in Asia. In that case the Allies (in the Great War) never defeated Germany as there was an Armistice- not a surrender. My history isn’t faulty I don’t think- there is a difference between a “battle” and a “war”. Whichever way you look at it Germany won the war against Russia. The side that refuses to fight further is not generally considered a winner. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/63 "2008-11-13T14:33:25Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > In that case the Allies (in the Great War) never defeated Germany as there was an Armistice- not a surrender. > > My history isn’t faulty I don’t think- there is a difference between a “battle” and a “war”. Whichever way you look at it Germany won the war against Russia. The side that refuses to fight further is not generally considered a winner. Even so, the Germans did not militarily defeat the Russians either in Russia or in Asia; ie the Imperial German Army did not march on Moscow, beat the stuffing out of the Russians, and rename the city Kaiserwilhelmburg or anything like that. The Russian withdrawl from WWI is a complex subject and is at least partially due to their lack of success against the Germans, but it has more to do with the 1917 Revolution than because the Germans were “winning” the war against Tsarist Russia. Incidentally, there was an actual surrender for Germany in WWI- [It was signed in 1919](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles). The Armistice (11am, 11/11/1918) was the end of the shooting war, but not the actual state of war between the Allies and Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/64 "2008-11-13T23:35:18Z")
Martini Enfield, we may just have to disagree on this one. Whilst I acknowledge your points, there was no great battle for Berlin either. I was aware of the surrender in 1919 but the (arguably) main cause of the collapse of the Second Reich was the relentless 4 years of blockade- the population was starving as were the industries. Anyway, back to the original post, I do sot see Napoeon as “silly”. His armies came very close to winning Waterloo- and things would have been quite different if that had occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/65 "2008-11-13T23:48:45Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Napoleon also broke The First Cardinal Rule of Warfare: > > _Never invade Russia in the Winter._ > > Napoleon didn’t have a chance to break the Second Rule of Warfare (which is not _"You do not talk about Warfare_, before anyone tries to bring Tyler Durden into this), but if he had the opportunity then I’m pretty sure Napoleon would have indeed been getting involved in Land Wars in Asia. > > That alone accounts for at least some of the “silly” reputation, IMHO. > > Napoleon was a fascinating person though, and it’s a shame people don’t really know more about him than the Funny Hat/Arm in Shirt/Short/Bad Tempered thing… Nappy was on his way to breaking that rule too - remember his (disasterous) invasion of Egypt. He made it as far as Acre: > **[French invasion of Egypt and Syria](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Invasion_of_Egypt_(1798)#Syrian_Campaign)** > > The French invasion of Egypt and Syria (1798–1801) was a military expedition to Ottoman-held Egypt and Syria led by Napoleon Bonaparte during the French Revolutionary Wars. The campaign aimed to undermine British trade routes, expand French influence, and establish a scientific and administrative presence in Egypt. Napoleon also sought to sever Britain's connection to its colonial holdings in India, with the long-term ambition of challenging British dominance in the region. > Departing from Tou... ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/66 "2008-11-14T11:39:58Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Unless my history is faulty they defeated Russia. Russia was a European power. The Germans never got near the Asian part of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/67 "2008-11-14T11:43:57Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Russia was a European power. The Germans never got near the Asian part of Russia. Russia has a lot of Asian territory and was an Asian as well as a European power (although to what extent is questionable after the 1904 war with Japan). There was no need for the Germans to go near the Asian territories, ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/68 "2008-11-14T14:50:58Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > Anyway, back to the original post, I do sot see Napoeon as “silly”. His armies came very close to winning Waterloo- and things would have been quite different if that had occurred. If he had won at Waterloo then no doubt many of his former allies would have returned to the fold to fight for him. They were at best fair weather friends to the Brits with a few exceptions and being on the winning side seemed to be their most important consideration. But we would have beaten him anyway,when it comes to the French us Brits kick bottoms. Speaking of which and related to the image question, Napoleon apparently suffered badly from piles. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/69 "2008-11-14T14:59:32Z")
What a pain in the arse. I have a book- somewhere- (I am not at home) which claims if Napoleons troops had carried nails to spike the English cannons (which they had over run) they would not have later been used against them, \ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/70 "2008-11-14T15:07:13Z")
> [@Dan\_ch](#): > > Wild guess: because he become emperor under the name Napoleon 1st. Until then he was just the general Bonaparte. It seems that, for some reason, the kings & emperors are referred to on a first name basis (Alexander the Great, Caesar, queen Elizabeth, king George V, etc). > > On preview: Heh, too late… :smack: 🙂 Nitpick but Ceaser was Gaius Julius Ceasar’s last name which then became a title (which then morphed into “Keizer” or “Czar” in other languages). Alexander the Great didn’t have a last name (unless you count “of Macedon” or “the Great” as last names.) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/71 "2008-11-14T15:54:05Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > What a pain in the arse. > I have a book- somewhere- (I am not at home) which claims if Napoleons troops had carried nails to spike the English cannons (which they had over run) they would not have later been used against them, \ The British never used artillery as effectively as N. who used them en masse whereas Wellington tended not to concentrate them,so I dont think that was the battle winner. IMO if Neys massed cavalry charge hadn’t of been seen off by the Brits cavalry there might have been problems but the clincher was the near total breakdown of morale and subsequent mass retreat of the French when they saw their until then “invincible” when pitted against the armies of Europe,Imperial Guard break and run when they engaged British Guardsmen . Its ironic really because Britain considered itsself to be primarily a Naval nation and the army came a poor second in both esteem and resources as far as the British public and politicians were concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/72 "2008-11-14T16:02:37Z")
If we step back one large step, do we see an utter incompetent or do we see a good leader who made some mistakes but isn’t nearly worthy of the caricature? He led a huge force for years through many complex campaigns. History judges losers harshly as it should, but in the aggregate were his choices that much worse than those of generals who have not become a joke? ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/73 "2008-11-14T16:03:42Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > **chowder** ’s a grouchy British guy. Disliking the frogs is what he does. Don’t confuse him with facts. 😛 😉 I’m English my good fellow and I’m not grouchy in the least. You’re right about the frogs bit tho’🙂 Them and Man Utd ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/74 "2008-11-14T16:35:58Z")
I’m a Brit and I think that Napoleon was a genius. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/75 "2008-11-14T17:36:35Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I’m a Brit and I think that Napoleon was a genius. Treacherous swine;) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/76 "2008-11-14T17:55:49Z")
Sabering champagne does sound very flamboyant. Doesn’t it waste a fair amount of the wine, though? ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/77 "2008-11-14T18:54:40Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Treacherous swine;) Oh come on! He wasn’t a total boob. Not Winston Churchill, but not completely useless. Or Patton. Yeah, boy! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/78 "2008-11-14T19:40:17Z")
Let’s remember ONE good thing that came out of Napoleon’s invasion of Moscow: _The 1812 Overture_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/79 "2008-11-14T19:44:58Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > If we step back one large step, do we see an utter incompetent or do we see a good leader who made some mistakes but isn’t nearly worthy of the caricature? > > He led a huge force for years through many complex campaigns. History judges losers harshly as it should, but in the aggregate were his choices that much worse than those of generals who have not become a joke? He was an excellent general. The source of both his greatness and his absurdity was his overweening ambition - which, for a time, looked like it could be realized. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136/80 "2008-11-14T19:48:28Z")
> [@PopeJewish](#): > > …you do realize that France was one of the main European centers of culture and power for a very long time, right? That’s where the main concepts behind Knighthood come from (like Chivalry, a _French_ word) More like the word chivalry, like most words pertaining to the upper classes in medieval England, came from French, owing to the Norman Conquest. It doesn’t mean that knighthood was born in France. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-think-of-napoleon-as-silly/472136.md?page=5)