# Why do we tolerate Israel's strongarm tactics? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619 "2002-07-31T00:52:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2002, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/121 "2002-08-14T11:07:41Z")
Dear **istara** Whatta You mean “sell weapons to the Palestinians?” Give, for Christs sake. It will be the end of the terrorists! And to give is much more according to the Christian and Muslim believes. **The plan** **1)** We make funds for the Palestinian so that they can built up an army. **2)** They can be trained in the EU countries, by the armies there. (We have very good armies in Europe, but nothing to do for the moment. Nothing to bomb. Absolutely nothing). **Conditions:** - They will swear by their God that they stop the terrorist acts and only kill soldiers that are attacking or occupying their country. - They also swear that they will stop anybody else to do terrorist acts. Then we ship them back “over there”, and the killing can begin. Then the EU-USA-UN (and all the other letters) will intervene. Thus we get rid of the terrorists. They will be honorable soldiers! Everybody happy. Still, to Your question number 5: I do not know why, but soon some of the guys in this thread will let us know. They know everything. While I am waiting for the answer why the Palestinians needs so much blood, after that the Israelian army came and protect them, You can read the story of Ellen O’Grady. She tells how good care the Israelian army takes of the pregnant women, how they treat brick-laying terrorists, and let the water-tanks come through. (I assume a tank is a tank, so they shouldn’t come through). It is amazing how these, mostly women, that I get knowledge of, are always speaking about a totally another planet than e.g. Fox News. The reporting organ is islamic, but the story comes from International Solidarity Movement, what-ever that is, from **Ellen O’Grady** : [www.iap.org/iraqbureen.htm](http://www.iap.org/iraqbureen.htm) And if You want more news from Palestine/Israel, from these papers/news agencies: **Independent** Biased! **DPA** Biased! **Jordan Times** Biased! **Haaretz** Biased! **Ynet** Biased! **AFP** Biased! **Guardian** Biased! **LA Times** Biased! **NY Times** Biased! **FT** Biased! **Newsday** Biased! **ICAHD** Biased! **Financial Times** Biased! **The Times** Biased! **Scotsman** Biased! **Al-Ahram** Biased! **Times** Biased!, go to the islamic (huh!!) page: [http://www.iap.org/aug12news.htm](http://www.iap.org/aug12news.htm) and [http://www.iap.org/aug9news.htm](http://www.iap.org/aug9news.htm) If You want more (biased) links, just E-mail me or ask here. But **do not go** to the totally biased BBC. (government owned, trotskistic-anarcistic news media, only serving the dangeros socialist Tony Blair and his cunnigly hidden, secret intentions). The good films they make is just a smoke-screen, invented by Karl Barks. _**NO! No! NO!**_ I mean Karl Marx. Karl Barks was the guy who made these ducks that walks in the comics without trousers (that was another plot, in order to immoralize the Americans). Sorry for side-jumping. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/122 "2002-08-15T00:35:38Z")
[Palestinians turning against suicide bombing strategy.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,60395,00.html) Yes, Fox News is pro-Israel, yada, yada, yada. Given the nature of the story that tends to add credibility to it. Usually they depict Palestinians in a much less favorable light. I think the suicide bombing strategy has been counterproductive in the extreme. It has turned many westerners against the Palestinians and has convinced many Israelis that a military response is necessary. If the bombing stops, Likkud will no longer have an excuse not to bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/123 "2002-08-15T02:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*Yeah, Bizzwire, that annoys me too. First we fought the Brits to a standstill, forcing them to wash their hands of the whole region; then we beat the Palestinians after a long, bloody fight, despite the fact that they outgunned us; and finally we beat off the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and - I believe - Libya. All the while, of course, the only support we received from anyone was of the moral variety, which is nice, but not very useful. > > And people say that our state was _imposed_? Israel was formed despite the international community, not because of it. \*\* What the heck are you talking about? When did Israel fight the Brits to a standstill? Before or after it was established by the UN? No, Israel was definitely not formed despite the international community. It was the international community, in the form of the UN, that gave Israel the legal standing to exist in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/124 "2002-08-15T03:12:50Z")
This [article](http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28565) was written by Joseph Farah, who happens to be an Arab. > [@](#): > > Maybe those apologists for terror can start explaining why the same tactics by the same people are being employed against other Arabs in Lebanon. > \ > It hasn’t received much attention in the international press. But there’s a war raging in the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. It’s Lebanon’s own little intifada in the making. > > Last week, a bomb went off in front of a shop in the Ain Helweh camp near the southern Lebanese port city of Sidon. The owner of the shop, Rafiq al-Bahti, who was unhurt, is not known to be associated with any political party or movement. Also last week, three members of Hamas were wounded in a shoot-out with another Islamist terrorist group, Asbat al-Ansar. > > Earlier, a bomb exploded in front of the home of Khaled Shayeb, an official with Yasser Arafat’s Fatah terrorist organization… You see, Lebanon is occupied territory – in fact, the only truly occupied turf in the Mideast. Syria dominates the government, the police forces, the intelligence apparatus and the military of its once-free neighbor. > > Earlier still, a hand grenade was lobbed at the house of Munir Maqdah, head of the Fatah movement in Ain el-Helweh. > > …Various Palestinian factions have long been engaged in a struggle for control of the refugee camps. There is also an underlying tension with the Syrian forces who dominate the country… > \ > Ain Helweh is a kind of living hell, housing 70,000 perpetual second- and third-generation refugees. It is controlled by various factions – all violent, all terrorists, all the time. Shoot-outs, assassinations, bombings, etc. are a way of life. > > What’s the point of the violence? It’s a way of life. \*\*What’s my point? There are no Israelis in Lebanon to blame for this terror. There are no Israelis to blame for Lebanon’s occupation. There are no Israelis to blame for the forced incarceration of these Arabic-speaking refugees. \*\* > > This is Arab-on-Arab violence. This is Arab-on-Arab oppression. This is Arab-on-Arab apartheid. > > \*\*It’s just another example of how Israel is not the cause of Mideast violence. Israel is not the issue in most of the bloodshed in the Mideast. Israel is not the reason the entire Arab world lives in a state of repression and under various forms of tyranny. \*\* > \ > Under Lebanese law, they cannot own property. They do not have the right to work in 74 forms of employment. It’s very difficult to leave the country and even harder to enter. Those who already have property do not have the right to pass it on to their children. Palestinians are confined to 12 camps with no medical, social or educational services from the government and are barred in some of those camps from building or even repairing homes. > \ > **The refugee camps of Lebanon are the breeding grounds of hate and violence. And there isn’t an Israeli or a Jew to be seen anywhere near them.** ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/125 "2002-08-20T16:36:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > OK, **Efrem** , I’ll bite… With a name like that, I believe you. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > While this is already being discussed in another thread, I’ll point out that Israel’s actions, as long as you consider them military operations and Shehadeh a legitimate target in and of himself, were legal under the Geneva Convention. He might be considered a legitimate target (with a huge stretch), his death might even be defended as the only option (improbable and unlikely). However, the slaughter of 15 civilians along with Shehadeh’s body is NOT legal under any UN sponsored international agreements. It is in severe violation of the [Fourth Geneva Convention (Article 147)](http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/c525816bde96b7fd41256739003e636a/f8d322bf3c0216b2c12563cd0051c654?OpenDocument), and is considered to be a war crime. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > I cannot understand people who are in opposition to both collective punishment (as I am) and assassination (as I am not). Assassination is the only way Israel can precisely get who it wants to get. Taking aside the clear injustice of Israel claiming that they can kill any Palestinian they want, with whatever means they feel like, without any spec of due process or rule of law. If you are defending Israel’s Extra-judicial Executions as precise then you are wrong. They are as [pinpoint](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1014595.stm) as a sledgehammer, and [precise](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1853690.stm) as a roll of the dice. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > As has already been pointed out, policing and capturing terrorists in the territories would be at least as illegal If you are defending them as ‘just’ then you are wrong again. These measures are in **direct violation** of Article [5](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/c525816bde96b7fd41256739003e636a/3f78f96145a77442c12563cd0051b9f0?OpenDocument) of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Also Article [32](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/c525816bde96b7fd41256739003e636a/0146c998773b1496c12563cd0051bc2f?OpenDocument), which requires humane treatment and is enforced by the prohibition of acts that are considered to be absolutely incompatible with the notion of humane treatment. > [@](#): > > _article 32_ > This prohibition applies not only to **murder** , torture, corporal punishment, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment of a protected person, but also to any other measures of brutality whether applied by civilian or military agents. (bolding mine) These are grave violations and are considered war crimes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > and definitely more dangerous to both Israeli officers and Palestinian civilians. If you are defending them as lifesaving you are wrong, yet again. Despite the Israeli claim, these killings have failed to stop bombings and have in fact provoked the killings of [more](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2171227.stm) and [more](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2160869.stm) Israelis. This current upsurge in Palestinian attacks is directly linked to the Gaza massacre. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Although I’m opposed to the settlements, I assume you support the Palestinian right of return? Please comment on how you think these are any different, especially as the right of return would allow all Palestinians to come back to Israel, not only those who have deeds to existing properties. The act of creating settlements on occupied land is illegal under international law and is a war crime. Article [49](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/c525816bde96b7fd41256739003e636a/77068f12b8857c4dc12563cd0051bdb0?OpenDocument) states **very** clearly: > [@](#): > > The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. The [Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court](http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/b0d5f4c1f4b8102041256739003e6366/e4c44e2f1347b99d412566900046eacb?OpenDocument) clearly defines this as a war crime: > [@](#): > > The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, The Israeli act of settlement inside the [West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and even the Golan Heights](http://www.fmep.org/images/occupied_territories2002.gif) (that you claim to oppose, but seem to equate to ‘The right to return’ for Palestinians) is very well documented act. A Washington Post article called [Settlements Expanding Under Sharon](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A36458-2002May30¬Found=true) had this to say: > [@](#): > > In the past few months, Israeli settlement agencies and settler organizations have set up the nuclei of three dozen new settlements, according to two Israeli groups that monitor construction and oppose the program. A Western diplomat estimated the number at 40… > > The continued colonization builds on a 30-year-old national project that has progressed without letup since Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza Strip from Egypt in the 1967 Middle East war… > > Jewish settlers established Avigail on land claimed by a Palestinian family. Three weeks ago, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the army to evacuate the settlers, but nothing has been done. > > “If we don’t take this land now, it will be lost to the Arabs,” said Ido Beckerman, an employee in the Israeli government water department who moved to Avigail from another West Bank settlement…“It doesn’t look like much now, but Tel Aviv once looked like this,” Beckerman said, in reference to Israel’s largest city… > > Although Avigail’s mobile homes sit on only a fraction of an acre, soldiers prohibit Palestinians from entering a much larger area, to keep them away from the settlers. And the army has fenced off Hamamdi’s plot of wheat inside the now-forbidden area, which also blocks the direct road to other communities of cave dwellers. Soldiers have declared the area a closed military zone, meaning Hamamdi and his donkey must take a roundabout way to market. The article goes on to state the fact that in the Gaza strip 1 million Palestinians are squeezed into about 60 percent of the land, while 3,000 Jewish ‘pioneers’ have settled on the other 40% in heavily guarded communities. The case made in [ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES: A Guide](http://www.fmep.org/reports/2002/sr0203.html), cites some settler facts such as: > [@](#): > > Built-up settlement areas occupy 1.4 percent of the West Bank’s 5,640 sq. km. Settlement boundaries enclose almost 10 percent of West Bank territory. In addition, with the outbreak of the al-Aqsa intifada in September 2000, Israel appears to be planning “no-go” areas between 70 and 500 meters wide around each settlement and every military installation in the occupied territories… > > At least 360 Palestinian homes were demolished in the Gaza Strip by the IDF during the first year of the intifada. Since October 2000, Israeli authorities have demolished more than 200 houses in the West Bank. The Israeli refusal of the ‘[right of return](http://www.rightofreturn.org/)’ for Palestinians is another injustice in itself. The reasoning that UN registered Palestinian refugees who have been sitting in camps right across Israel’s border for 50 years will not be let back in just for the sole fact that they are Arabs, is sick. However, couple that with the reasoning that thousands of people across the world (who may never have in their life set foot in the Middle East and who’s ancestors also may have never set foot in the Middle East) **will** be let in just solely based on the fact that they are Jewish (born or joined), is sicker. Also now throw on top of that the fact that not only will they be let inside of Israel, but if desired they can settle inside the occupied West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem even uprooting current families living there, the illegality of it all becomes mind boggling. This is a complete disregard for The Universal Declaration of Human Rights which states: > [@](#): > > Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country Israel has [continued](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=162872) and [continued](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=157373) it’s racist policies, not only against the right of return, but against any Arab immigration. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Of course, if the Palestinians were let out, you would be angry about the civilians who died while caught in the crossfire during military operations, no? Yes, I would be angry about those civilians who die in crossfire, I would also want justice for them. Israel keeps Palestinian civilians (just the Palestinians, Israeli settlers are not subject to the degrading act of curfew) under ‘house arrest’, only to be let out for a couple hours a week. If they need food, they wait and starve. If they need medical help, they wait and suffer (or die). People can’t get to jobs (no money), children can’t go to school (no education) and if they venture outside for any reason they run the high risk of getting shot (or [worst](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2057847.stm)) by patrolling Israeli soldiers. To hell with the fact that this is a violation of the [Universal Declaration of Human Rights](http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) (Article 1, 9, 13, 23, 25, 26, 30). This **is** collective punishment (the very idea you professed to be against). This collective ‘house arrest’ is creating a generation of ‘Anne Franks’ in Palestine, it is cruel and unjust punishment for a occupied and grossly oppressed people. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Israeli policy says deportation would only happen to those family members involved in terrorist attacks. I guess we have yet to see how Israel officially handles this issue, and who they consider to be ‘involved’. However, if you claim this as correct behaviour I have to ask, will the family members of **Jewish** terrorists be subject to the same (in)justice? On a side note the [Israeli interior minister Eli Yishai said](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2176525.stm) that he plans to revoke the citizenship of Arab **Israelis** who have been ‘involved’ in attacks on Israeli targets. He was quoted to saying: > [@](#): > > _“If I stop one terrorist from killing one Jew, not to mention more than that, it will be worthwhile to revoke the citizenship of 10 or more (Arabs) and to stop this terrible plague,”_ The move has rightly been called racist by rights groups and the Jerusalem Post reported the minister as ‘evasive’ when asked whether Israeli Jews could face a similar punishment. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > This economic “strangulation” is an unintended side effect of a policy designed to keep Palestinian suicide bombers from entering into Israel. It of course hurts the Israelis as well, since they are losing a huge labor source. But if the US reduced the number of Mexicans who could come across the border to work in the US, would you call that the economic strangulation of Mexico? If you look at all the Israeli factors in Palestine you will see a vast network of economic oppression. The World Bank has made a detailed summary of Palestinian economic troubles: [Fifteen Months - Intifada, Closures and Palestinian Economic Crisis:](http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/mna/mena.nsf/Countries/West+Bank/67FB14AF1F54168785256B85003C5F07?OpenDocument). Under the section of “[The Causes of Damage](http://lnweb18.worldbank.org/mna/mena.nsf/Attachments/The+Causes+of+Damage/%24File/The+causes+of+Damage.pdf)” they cite some of the many heavy and crippling restriction placed on Palestinians throughout the West Bank, and Gaza as the direct causes of the current poverty. > [@](#): > > _The Causes of Damage_ > Internal closure. A dense network of fixed and mobile military checkpoints has been established on transportation lines within the West Bank and Gaza since September 28, 2000 (see Maps). At times of severe internal closure – 73 percent of the time in the West Bank and 4 percent in Gaza through the end of December 2001 – pedestrian and vehicle mobility on main roads is reserved for **Israeli military personnel, settlers and non-Palestinians** , while even on days of “partial” closure these checkpoints have created a life of roundabout routes, interminable delays and frequent harassment.(bolding mine) The assessment among other things also tackles the lack of [freedom of movement](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2172260.stm) for Palestinians, that Israel imposes (which by the way is another human right that is granted to everyone by the UN charter). ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/126 "2002-08-20T16:39:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > What else is Israel to do when the homes that are being razed are used as command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists? Home Demolishing is not a tactic being used against ‘command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists’. Israel frequently raze the homes of ‘Palestinian relatives of terror suspects’, as ‘punishment’. [Israel Kills Palestinian Militiamen](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020807/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_6061): > [@](#): > > In Jerusalem, Israel’s Supreme Court rejected a petition by Palestinian relatives of terror suspects whose homes are slated for demolition by the Israeli military. The petitioners asked for 48 hours notice so they could go to court to try to stop the demolitions. The military said soldiers would be put at risk if a warning was given. They need not even give even 48 hour notice to those who are living there. Also according to the [Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions](http://www.icahd.org/eng/) and [B’tselem](http://www.btselem.org/) this is a tactic of land expropriation and Israeli settlement expansion. [Israel’s Policy of House Demolitions and Destruction of Agricultural Land in the Gaza Strip - Summary](http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Policy_of_Destruction.asp), By B’tselem > [@](#): > > The policy of demolishing houses and destroying the agricultural land is part of Israel’s defense strategy in the Gaza Strip. Part of this strategy is the creation of “security strips” around places where Israeli civilians or security forces are situated. These strips are intended to prevent Palestinian attacks…The demolition of houses generally takes place in the middle of the night without any warning being given to the residents…According to UNRWA, since the beginning of the intifada, the IDF has demolished 655 houses in the refugee camps in the Gaza Strip, in which 5,124 people lived…Israel also refuses to compensate Palestinians for the damages that it caused them, even though the IDF actions were in grave breach of international humanitarian law. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Of course, the Boers never left a bomb in the Oxford cafeteria. Natives in almost every single colony from North America to India had extremists who carried out gruesome and often indiscriminate killings. Are you refuting this? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > It’s not. But democratic institutions (and that doesn’t just mean elections - I mean, hey, Saddam Hussein was so popular he got 99% of the vote! - but also the rule of law, independent judiciary, and a recognition of individual rights also). No, that is an example of **ideal** governance, not one of **self** -governance. Few self-governing countries have even achieved this, let alone had it set up since conception. When it started the USA didn’t even fit this bill and Israel still doesn’t. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > A terrorist dictatorship? A way to use the world’s money to make bombs and produce anti-Israel propaganda? The best proof that the Palestinians shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? Israel is a terrorist Democracy. A great way to use USA’s money to make nuclear bombs and produce Anti-Palestinian propaganda. The best proof that the Jewish people shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? :rolleyes: To get back on track from your rhetoric, the Palestinian Authority was not an ideal government, but it very much was self-governance (Palestinians who have been govern by other Palestinians). However, still I fail to see how former self-government should be a requirement to self-govern. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Well, that was because they never brought Hamas and Islamic Jihad to the negotiating table. I believe Israel **did** have Hamas at the negotiating table, but decided to kill their leader (along with 15 other people) instead. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > See, while groups like that (which I’m sure you of course condemn, but don’t think Israel should do anything about) explicitly call for the destruction of Israel, 1. Don’t make such pitiful attempts to discredit my ideas and beliefs. 2. Israel OTOH is not **calling** for the destruction of Palestine, their are **actively participating** in the destruction of Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Arafat thinks it should be done more subtly, through the “phased plan” of 1974. cite? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But occasionally, his real ideas manage to leak out. Like when he supports agreements with Israel in the name of al-Hudaybiyah (which, for those who don’t know, is where Muhammad made a truce with the Quraish tribe so he could build up his army and break the truce two years later). Or how his _kaffiyeh_ is worn unconventionally to his right side, not coincidentally shaped like the state of Israel. Or the fact that even since the Palestinian Legislative Council voted to eliminate the call for the destruction of Israel from the PLO Charter, the charter has not been re-issued since then, rendering the amendment meaningless. Taking aside the fact that it would be a good idea to issue a new charter, how big of an issue is this? Instead of focusing on which side a ‘kaffiyeh’ is worn, try to stick to major issues like the removal of Israeli settlements, or the assurance of a democratic Palestinian state. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Palestinians were offered the first ever Palestinian state, and instead joined with Syria, Jordan, & Co. to attempt to destroy Israel The Palestinians were offered a state, but after over 50% of the original land was auctioned off by the British (Israel took another 50% of what was left over of Palestine after the war). Who had gained control of the land after WWI and promised Arab secession in the Middle East in turn for help defeating the Turks. Clearly the Palestinians people felt some injustice was dealt to them. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Palestinians (though nobody ever used that term then), made no demands for a state Your minor attack on the self perceived identity of Palestinians is disheartening and incorrect. The term ‘Palestinian’ was commonly used as a term for any one (Arab or Jew) living in the British Mandate of Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > and the Arab states were quite content to keep them in refugee camps, used as pawns in the larger Arab-Israeli conflict. Correct, and most still are sitting in refugee camps. However, a large part of their grief is not due to Arab compliance but to the criminal acts of Israel, which actively and illegally (see The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13(2)) prevents reparation of the refugees. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Which is, of course, a bullshit argument, since the Palestinians have been offered a state numerous times, and every time the result was increased violence against Israel. Every single time they were offered a state it was under progressively worst terms, it should be clear to even a child that any outrage expressed wasn’t due to the **offering** of a Palestinian state, but at the unsatisfactory (and often piss poor) terms that they were given. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > As if the Israelis just came in and put their houses on Palestinian backyards! In nearly every case territory was bought from Arabs who thought they were cheating the Jews. Cite? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fang_ > However, their intended victims of deception used irrigation techniques and Western capitalist ethics to turn the place from a worthless desert to a thriving modern society. I suppose those primitive Arabs should be grateful that they have a modern society like Israel, That is, only if over 3 million **registered** refugees weren’t prevented to return to **their** land and experience this ‘thriving modern society’, because those refugees are Arabs and thus not allowed. Or the previously mentioned vast policies Israel has to keep Arabs out of Israel. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > I’ll concede that there were Palestinians forced out of their homes, but this was the exception rather than the rule. What? Then it was a pretty big exception. The creation of Israel saw numerous Palestinians [forced](http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine)out of their [homes](http://www.jerusalemites.org/villages.html), [villages](http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/village@.html), [towns](http://www.stanford.edu/~bgiddens/landmap.gif), and [cities](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/palesvil.htm). This is a move, which created over 750,000 Arab refugees. This is fact! This is an act that has happened. The Israeli policy of “settle, displace, raze, and terrorize” has been ethnically cleaning Palestinians from the land since the conception of Israel and continues to this day. > [@](#): > > Those who were should be allowed to press their claims in Israeli courts. Israel has those, Putting aside the Israeli refusal to the ‘right of return’, Israeli courts have often been [unfair](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/25/international/middleeast/25FAMI.html) when dealing with Arab land ownership. > [@](#): > > while the Palestinian Authority only has “courts” - though I’m sure that’s the Jews’ fault. “The Jews’ fault”? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > No, you’re right, massacres were the way to go. Quit it with the “you’re right” crap. Massacres aren’t “the way to go”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > This is not Godwin. **Sofa King** did not draw a comparison with the Nazis; he pointed out the _fact_ that Palestinian leaders in the era of the Holocaust supported the Nazis. The main point of his speech was about how he loathes present-day Palestinians he cites ‘Haj Amin al-Husseini (a close relative of Yassir Arafat)’ as one of his reasons. This is a clear comparison of Palestinians (present day to before) to Nazi’s, thus invoking Godwin. > [@](#): > > Do you deny that this happened? No, I question the relevancy of this fact. > [@](#): > > Today’s Palestinian leaders are the ideological heirs of those from the 30s and 40s, and many, especially those at the top of organizations like Hamas, still believe that Hitler was doing the right thing. Are Senior Hamas officials now the measure of Palestinians? I guess all those in the Israeli parliament (like [Tourism Minister Benny Elon](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=125018&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y), and even Senior US Republican [Dick Armey](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,709919,00.html)) that think that Israel should expel (ethnically cleanse) all Arabs from ‘Erzat Israel’, are now the equal of all Israelis’. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a cite for this on hand, but I can find one if you don’t believe me. This is not required, **Sofa King** ’s (and now your) comments are far enough to invoke Godwin, no need for more ammo. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The German government has not actively attempted the murder of Jews since 1945. The German government has also not actively attempted the murder and oppression of Arabs since 1945. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The mere fact that they were living in that region did not make it all “their” land. Oh really? Israel is a very urban populated country, which means there is a lot of rural space in there. Does this mean that Egyptians or Chinese can set up camps and settlements there? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > By and large, the Jews moved on to uninhabited land or land they bought. “uninhabited land”? Damn it! It’s only uninhabited once the Arabs are moved out. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Arab states, who were aligned with the USSR, did use the Palestinians in opposition to Israel. Don’t know if you could call that “help”, but Israel is not automatically guilty for being stronger. Damn straight, Israel was stronger. Israel happens to be USA’s goddamned sacred cow, with all the unquestionable support (political and economical) Israel gets from the USA. This fact clearly doesn’t show an Israel/Palestine conflict but an US, Israel/Palestine conflict. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But you didn’t prove your point. There is plenty of evidence that the dominating powers in the territories (Israel excluded of course) are opposed to the existence of Israel. Of course they are opposed to the existence of Israel, they have gotten nothing, but brutal oppression and ethnic cleansing from that country. Are you going to object to their **right** to be angry at Israel. Growing up under these same conditions if it were me, I might have a little resentment for the existence of Israel too. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The very act of sending attackers into Israel proper makes it clear that they are not mounting a resistance movement. What? Please explain this logic. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Simple civil disobedience to Israel would have gotten them a state a long time ago; history has shown that civil disobedience works in getting countries with free presses to change their policies. Civil disobedience? I suppose you mean like marches, or lobbing, or letter writing campaigns. All of which (and more) has been going on in almost every country in the world, including Israel itself (most likely people on this very board has heard of a march in their own city). Unfortunately Israel refuses to deal with anyone when terrorists are at large. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Even armed resistance against Israeli military operations in the territories, without the simulataneous assaults inside the 1967 borders, would show that the Palestinians only want a state for themselves on the West Bank and Gaza. How about at Camp David the only thing stopping peace wasn’t the “Palestinian claim to all of Israel”, but the Israeli claim to parts of the remaining territory Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But when Palestinian TV shows for kids talk about how wonderful it is to be a suicide bomber, and Palestinian textbooks have maps labeling the whole of Israel and the territories “Palestine”, how can you not believe that the Palestinian Authority believes in the total destruction of Israel? Maybe the fact that given all the hardships Israel has put Palestinians through, it still was in favour towards open talks with the Israel government. It dealt with them on a daily basis, and has even worked side by side together. Before the current uprising the PA was a symbol of Israeli and Palestinian cooperation. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Ha. Two words: Camp David. Yes, “Camp David” is two words. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Well, no, but [the majority](http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p4epressrelease.html) do support suicide bombings inside Israel. And as I pointed out above, the children are being educated to destroy Israel by any means necessary. That poll does not in any way reflect the long term goals of the Palestinian people. It is only a refection at the current anger of the brutal Israeli tactics, and upswing in violence. To say that Palestinian children are being taught to “destroy Israel by any means necessary” then it can be said that Israeli children are being taught to “defend” Israel by any means necessary (and vice-versa). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > There used to be more people in favor of piece with Israel, but Arafat [killed](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,422379,00.html) them. Taking aside the fact that “collaborator” doesn’t mean moderate (I suppose if the USA had found an American “collaborator” working with Germany they were Peace activists). To say that Arafat has killed off all opposition is idiotic. The reason why most Palestinians don’t trust Israel is because of the re-occupation of Palestine, and the oppressive methods that Israel uses in it’s day-to-day operations. After all these tactics (which royally pisses the Palestinian population off) who is going to side with Israel? Arafat is good at killing his perceived enemies, but Israel (Sharon to be specific) was vastly better at it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > You are right. They don’t deserve a corrupt terrorist dictatorship at the hands of Arafat and his cronies, or the nuts at Hamas. Or the cruel and oppressive rule of Israel which has been close to unbearable for the Palestinians to burden. Do you have a solution to all of this? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Which is why Israel should launch an all-out assault on the leadership of every Palestinian terrorist group, including Fatah, then organize a Marshall Plan-style operation to rebuild Palestinian society to be better than the rest of the Arab socialist backwaters and fundamentalist theocracies. It will of course take a decisive victory, and may very well not happen, but Germany and Japan haven’t caused much trouble in the past 50 years. Your solution is poorly thought out. You forget Israel **has** launched an assault against Palestine, they **have** won a decisive victory, they **have** organized a Marshall Plan-style operation for the people, they **haven’t** rebuilt Palestinian society, and they **have** instead oppressed the people beyond belief. It is this plan that fueled extremist organizations such as Hamas who have nothing but contempt against Israel. It is this policy which makes the people support such extremist groups, it is these ideas which lead to further violence! It’s a simple matter of “cause and effect”. No matter what is done no amount of new oppression will make Palestinians more happy. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/127 "2002-08-20T16:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > What else is Israel to do when the homes that are being razed are used as command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists? Home Demolishing is not a tactic being used against ‘command-and-control centers and firing outposts for terrorists’. Israel frequently raze the homes of ‘Palestinian relatives of terror suspects’, as ‘punishment’. [Israel Kills Palestinian Militiamen](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/20020807/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_6061): > [@](#): > > In Jerusalem, Israel’s Supreme Court rejected a petition by Palestinian relatives of terror suspects whose homes are slated for demolition by the Israeli military. The petitioners asked for 48 hours notice so they could go to court to try to stop the demolitions. The military said soldiers would be put at risk if a warning was given. They need not even give even 48 hour notice to those who are living there. Also according to the [Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions](http://www.icahd.org/eng/) and [B’tselem](http://www.btselem.org/) this is a tactic of land expropriation and Israeli settlement expansion. [Israel’s Policy of House Demolitions and Destruction of Agricultural Land in the Gaza Strip - Summary](http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Policy_of_Destruction.asp), By B’tselem > [@](#): > > The policy of demolishing houses and destroying the agricultural land is part of Israel’s defense strategy in the Gaza Strip. Part of this strategy is the creation of “security strips” around places where Israeli civilians or security forces are situated. These strips are intended to prevent Palestinian attacks…The demolition of houses generally takes place in the middle of the night without any warning being given to the residents…According to UNRWA, since the beginning of the intifada, the IDF has demolished 655 houses in the refugee camps in the Gaza Strip, in which 5,124 people lived…Israel also refuses to compensate Palestinians for the damages that it caused them, even though the IDF actions were in grave breach of international humanitarian law. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Of course, the Boers never left a bomb in the Oxford cafeteria. Natives in almost every single colony from North America to India had extremists who carried out gruesome and often indiscriminate killings. Are you refuting this? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > It’s not. But democratic institutions (and that doesn’t just mean elections - I mean, hey, Saddam Hussein was so popular he got 99% of the vote! - but also the rule of law, independent judiciary, and a recognition of individual rights also). No, that is an example of **ideal** governance, not one of **self** -governance. Few self-governing countries have even achieved this, let alone had it set up since conception. When it started the USA didn’t even fit this bill and Israel still doesn’t. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > A terrorist dictatorship? A way to use the world’s money to make bombs and produce anti-Israel propaganda? The best proof that the Palestinians shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? Israel is a terrorist Democracy. A great way to use USA’s money to make nuclear bombs and produce Anti-Palestinian propaganda. The best proof that the Jewish people shouldn’t have their own state at this point in time? :rolleyes: To get back on track from your rhetoric, the Palestinian Authority was not an ideal government, but it very much was self-governance (Palestinians who have been govern by other Palestinians). However, still I fail to see how former self-government should be a requirement to self-govern. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Well, that was because they never brought Hamas and Islamic Jihad to the negotiating table. I believe Israel **did** have Hamas at the negotiating table, but decided to kill their leader (along with 15 other people) instead. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > See, while groups like that (which I’m sure you of course condemn, but don’t think Israel should do anything about) explicitly call for the destruction of Israel, 1. Don’t make such pitiful attempts to discredit my ideas and beliefs. 2. Israel OTOH is not **calling** for the destruction of Palestine, their are **actively participating** in the destruction of Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Arafat thinks it should be done more subtly, through the “phased plan” of 1974. cite? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But occasionally, his real ideas manage to leak out. Like when he supports agreements with Israel in the name of al-Hudaybiyah (which, for those who don’t know, is where Muhammad made a truce with the Quraish tribe so he could build up his army and break the truce two years later). Or how his _kaffiyeh_ is worn unconventionally to his right side, not coincidentally shaped like the state of Israel. Or the fact that even since the Palestinian Legislative Council voted to eliminate the call for the destruction of Israel from the PLO Charter, the charter has not been re-issued since then, rendering the amendment meaningless. Taking aside the fact that it would be a good idea to issue a new charter, how big of an issue is this? Instead of focusing on which side a ‘kaffiyeh’ is worn, try to stick to major issues like the removal of Israeli settlements, or the assurance of a democratic Palestinian state. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Palestinians were offered the first ever Palestinian state, and instead joined with Syria, Jordan, & Co. to attempt to destroy Israel The Palestinians were offered a state, but after over 50% of the original land was auctioned off by the British (Israel took another 50% of what was left over of Palestine after the war). Who had gained control of the land after WWI and promised Arab secession in the Middle East in turn for help defeating the Turks. Clearly the Palestinians people felt some injustice was dealt to them. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Palestinians (though nobody ever used that term then), made no demands for a state Your minor attack on the self perceived identity of Palestinians is disheartening and incorrect. The term ‘Palestinian’ was commonly used as a term for any one (Arab or Jew) living in the British Mandate of Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > and the Arab states were quite content to keep them in refugee camps, used as pawns in the larger Arab-Israeli conflict. Correct, and most still are sitting in refugee camps. However, a large part of their grief is not due to Arab compliance but to the criminal acts of Israel, which actively and illegally (see The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13(2)) prevents reparation of the refugees. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Which is, of course, a bullshit argument, since the Palestinians have been offered a state numerous times, and every time the result was increased violence against Israel. Every single time they were offered a state it was under progressively worst terms, it should be clear to even a child that any outrage expressed wasn’t due to the **offering** of a Palestinian state, but at the unsatisfactory (and often piss poor) terms that they were given. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > As if the Israelis just came in and put their houses on Palestinian backyards! In nearly every case territory was bought from Arabs who thought they were cheating the Jews. Cite? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fang_ > However, their intended victims of deception used irrigation techniques and Western capitalist ethics to turn the place from a worthless desert to a thriving modern society. I suppose those primitive Arabs should be grateful that they have a modern society like Israel, That is, only if over 3 million **registered** refugees weren’t prevented to return to **their** land and experience this ‘thriving modern society’, because those refugees are Arabs and thus not allowed. Or the previously mentioned vast policies Israel has to keep Arabs out of Israel. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > I’ll concede that there were Palestinians forced out of their homes, but this was the exception rather than the rule. What? Then it was a pretty big exception. The creation of Israel saw numerous Palestinians [forced](http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine)out of their [homes](http://www.jerusalemites.org/villages.html), [villages](http://www.birzeit.edu/crdps/village@.html), [towns](http://www.stanford.edu/~bgiddens/landmap.gif), and [cities](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/palesvil.htm). This is a move, which created over 750,000 Arab refugees. This is fact! This is an act that has happened. The Israeli policy of “settle, displace, raze, and terrorize” has been ethnically cleaning Palestinians from the land since the conception of Israel and continues to this day. > [@](#): > > Those who were should be allowed to press their claims in Israeli courts. Israel has those, Putting aside the Israeli refusal to the ‘right of return’, Israeli courts have often been [unfair](http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/25/international/middleeast/25FAMI.html) when dealing with Arab land ownership. > [@](#): > > while the Palestinian Authority only has “courts” - though I’m sure that’s the Jews’ fault. “The Jews’ fault”? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > No, you’re right, massacres were the way to go. Quit it with the “you’re right” crap. Massacres aren’t “the way to go”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > This is not Godwin. **Sofa King** did not draw a comparison with the Nazis; he pointed out the _fact_ that Palestinian leaders in the era of the Holocaust supported the Nazis. The main point of his speech was about how he loathes present-day Palestinians he cites ‘Haj Amin al-Husseini (a close relative of Yassir Arafat)’ as one of his reasons. This is a clear comparison of Palestinians (present day to before) to Nazi’s, thus invoking Godwin. > [@](#): > > Do you deny that this happened? No, I question the relevancy of this fact. > [@](#): > > Today’s Palestinian leaders are the ideological heirs of those from the 30s and 40s, and many, especially those at the top of organizations like Hamas, still believe that Hitler was doing the right thing. Are Senior Hamas officials now the measure of Palestinians? I guess all those in the Israeli parliament (like [Tourism Minister Benny Elon](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=125018&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y), and even Senior US Republican [Dick Armey](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,709919,00.html)) that think that Israel should expel (ethnically cleanse) all Arabs from ‘Erzat Israel’, are now the equal of all Israelis’. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a cite for this on hand, but I can find one if you don’t believe me. This is not required, **Sofa King** ’s (and now your) comments are far enough to invoke Godwin, no need for more ammo. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The German government has not actively attempted the murder of Jews since 1945. The German government has also not actively attempted the murder and oppression of Arabs since 1945. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The mere fact that they were living in that region did not make it all “their” land. Oh really? Israel is a very urban populated country, which means there is a lot of rural space in there. Does this mean that Egyptians or Chinese can set up camps and settlements there? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > By and large, the Jews moved on to uninhabited land or land they bought. “uninhabited land”? Damn it! It’s only uninhabited once the Arabs are moved out. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The Arab states, who were aligned with the USSR, did use the Palestinians in opposition to Israel. Don’t know if you could call that “help”, but Israel is not automatically guilty for being stronger. Damn straight, Israel was stronger. Israel happens to be USA’s goddamned sacred cow, with all the unquestionable support (political and economical) Israel gets from the USA. This fact clearly doesn’t show an Israel/Palestine conflict but an US, Israel/Palestine conflict. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But you didn’t prove your point. There is plenty of evidence that the dominating powers in the territories (Israel excluded of course) are opposed to the existence of Israel. Of course they are opposed to the existence of Israel, they have gotten nothing, but brutal oppression and ethnic cleansing from that country. Are you going to object to their **right** to be angry at Israel. Growing up under these same conditions if it were me, I might have a little resentment for the existence of Israel too. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > The very act of sending attackers into Israel proper makes it clear that they are not mounting a resistance movement. What? Please explain this logic. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Simple civil disobedience to Israel would have gotten them a state a long time ago; history has shown that civil disobedience works in getting countries with free presses to change their policies. Civil disobedience? I suppose you mean like marches, or lobbing, or letter writing campaigns. All of which (and more) has been going on in almost every country in the world, including Israel itself (most likely people on this very board has heard of a march in their own city). Unfortunately Israel refuses to deal with anyone when terrorists are at large. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Even armed resistance against Israeli military operations in the territories, without the simulataneous assaults inside the 1967 borders, would show that the Palestinians only want a state for themselves on the West Bank and Gaza. How about at Camp David the only thing stopping peace wasn’t the “Palestinian claim to all of Israel”, but the Israeli claim to parts of the remaining territory Palestine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > But when Palestinian TV shows for kids talk about how wonderful it is to be a suicide bomber, and Palestinian textbooks have maps labeling the whole of Israel and the territories “Palestine”, how can you not believe that the Palestinian Authority believes in the total destruction of Israel? Maybe the fact that given all the hardships Israel has put Palestinians through, it still was in favour towards open talks with the Israel government. It dealt with them on a daily basis, and has even worked side by side together. Before the current uprising the PA was a symbol of Israeli and Palestinian cooperation. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Ha. Two words: Camp David. Yes, “Camp David” is two words. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Well, no, but [the majority](http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2002/p4epressrelease.html) do support suicide bombings inside Israel. And as I pointed out above, the children are being educated to destroy Israel by any means necessary. That poll does not in any way reflect the long term goals of the Palestinian people. It is only a refection at the current anger of the brutal Israeli tactics, and upswing in violence. To say that Palestinian children are being taught to “destroy Israel by any means necessary” then it can be said that Israeli children are being taught to “defend” Israel by any means necessary (and vice-versa). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > There used to be more people in favor of piece with Israel, but Arafat [killed](http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,422379,00.html) them. Taking aside the fact that “collaborator” doesn’t mean moderate (I suppose if the USA had found an American “collaborator” working with Germany they were Peace activists). To say that Arafat has killed off all opposition is idiotic. The reason why most Palestinians don’t trust Israel is because of the re-occupation of Palestine, and the oppressive methods that Israel uses in it’s day-to-day operations. After all these tactics (which royally pisses the Palestinian population off) who is going to side with Israel? Arafat is good at killing his perceived enemies, but Israel (Sharon to be specific) was vastly better at it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > You are right. They don’t deserve a corrupt terrorist dictatorship at the hands of Arafat and his cronies, or the nuts at Hamas. Or the cruel and oppressive rule of Israel which has been close to unbearable for the Palestinians to burden. Do you have a solution to all of this? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > Which is why Israel should launch an all-out assault on the leadership of every Palestinian terrorist group, including Fatah, then organize a Marshall Plan-style operation to rebuild Palestinian society to be better than the rest of the Arab socialist backwaters and fundamentalist theocracies. It will of course take a decisive victory, and may very well not happen, but Germany and Japan haven’t caused much trouble in the past 50 years. Your solution is poorly thought out. You forget Israel **has** launched an assault against Palestine, they **have** won a decisive victory, they **have** organized a Marshall Plan-style operation for the people, they **haven’t** rebuilt Palestinian society, and they **have** instead oppressed the people beyond belief. It is this plan that fueled extremist organizations such as Hamas who have nothing but contempt against Israel. It is this policy which makes the people support such extremist groups, it is these ideas which lead to further violence! It’s a simple matter of “cause and effect”. No matter what is done no amount of new oppression will make Palestinians more happy. ---
**Author:** ![Efrem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@Efrem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Efrem)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2002, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/128 "2002-08-20T17:26:43Z")
**Alessen** put it quite bluntly when he wrote: > [@](#): > > The phrase “Never Again”, which you quoted , has several meanings: to most of the world, it means: “we will never allow this horror to happen again”. To us Israelis, it means “we will never allow this horror to happan again **to us** , and we will do whatever it takes to prevent it. So watch out.” ---
**Author:** ![Henry\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/d78d45/32.png) [@Henry\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry_B)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619/129 "2002-08-22T19:21:53Z")
Thank You, **Efrem** , it is a lot to read, but very interesting! So, my question to all, still is: If we do not tolerate Israel’s strongarm tactics, like I do not, **is it morally right to send money for weapons to the Palestinians?** If not, why not? - if they only fight an army that is occupying their land;Israel, Syria, Lebanon. (It has been told to me that the two later also are occupying Palestinian land, but I have no maps or sites about it. I also do not know what is ment when we speak about “the historical Palestinia”? - if their (to be formed) army arrests everyone that kill non-military people = terrorists I just want a principal answer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-tolerate-israels-strongarm-tactics/121619.md?page=6)