# Why do we trade with China but not Cuba? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729 "2006-03-24T15:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![NiceGuyJack](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/niceguyjack/32/3069_2.png) [@NiceGuyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NiceGuyJack)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/21 "2006-03-26T19:04:31Z")
Look above for all the reasons why the US doesn’t trade with Cuba. I think that part of your question has been answered, but why trade with China? Part of it was the Chinese distancing themselves from the Soviets, but that was not the only reason. Indeed, the PRC, maintained a closed and restricted border until 1978, when then premier, Deng Xiao Ping declared it was okay for people to improve their lot through economic gains (Not those words exactly). He started an economic reform that has been continuing to this day. China truly opened up in the early 90’s after the Soviet Union collapsed. I have been traveling to China since the early ‘90s on business and I can personally confirm that China has adopted capitalism fully. Shanghai in 1992 compared to Shanghai in 2006, is like visiting two very different cities. Although the ruling party is still the communist party, in reality, it is communist only in name. The economic reform in China has made it acceptable to do business there, where as Cuba is still ideologically communist under Castro. Although I understand there have been some reforms there as well, although not to the extent as China has reformed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/22 "2006-03-26T22:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=mike1dog] We don’t trade with them [Iran] either, do we? [/QUOTE] Depends on what you mean by “trade.” They export oil, and, being a fungible product, once a given barrel goes on the world market it might wind up in a refinery anywhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/23 "2006-03-26T22:16:11Z")
Any attempt to justify the Cuba embargo based on Castro’s current restrictions of personal or economic rights runs afoul of the fact that the United States trades with nations that do much worse, and has done so for decades. In the China case, while some segments have the country have made vast gains, the farm and factory laborers are still effectively enslaved, law enforcement is brutal and human rights nonexistent. The United States also trades with Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, the list goes on. The contradictory policies arise from the fact that the U. S. government is controlled by corporate interests. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/24 "2006-03-26T22:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] The contradictory policies arise from the fact that the U. S. government is controlled by corporate interests. [/QUOTE] And also that the livelihood of many ordinary Americans (not all, but many) depends to some extent on the prosperity of those interests. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/25 "2006-03-26T22:25:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Don’t forget there are also American commercial interests anxious to **avoid** competition from Cuban tobacco and sugar. [/QUOTE] That may be, but there are probably more U.S. commericial interests that _want_ to trade with Cuba, especially in agriculture. And those Cubans that got thrown out of the hotel in Mexico City? They were there in talks with some U.S. energy execs. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/26 "2006-03-26T22:32:37Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] That may be, but there are probably more U.S. commericial interests that _want_ to trade with Cuba, especially in agriculture. [/quote] Why? Other than sugar and tobacco, what do they grow in Cuba that can’t be grown more cheaply in the U.S.? [QUOTE=guizot] And those Cubans that got thrown out of the hotel in Mexico City? They were there in talks with some U.S. energy execs. [/QUOTE] Why? Cuba has no oil, does it? And if the execs wanted to **sell** them oil – how would the Cubans pay for it? Besides, Cuba no longer has an oil problem since it worked out a deal with Venezuela: Venezuela supplies Cuba with oil, Cuba supplies Venezuela with doctors. (Cuba has the best medical-education system in the region and even does some original pharmaceutical research.) ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/27 "2006-03-27T06:31:39Z")
It has been years since I read anything about LA history, but wasn’t Castro involved in exporting revolution somewhere, as well as the 59-63 belligerencies? hh ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/28 "2006-03-27T14:21:41Z")
[QUOTE=handsomeharry] It has been years since I read anything about LA history, but wasn’t Castro involved in exporting revolution somewhere, as well as the 59-63 belligerencies? hh [/QUOTE] Castro’s lieutenant, Che Guevara, went to Bolivia in 1966-67 to foment revolution there. He was ultimately captured and executed. [Che Guevara - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_guevara#Bolivia) In 1975 Castro sent troops to Angola to help its Marxist government fight the UNITA insurgency. In 1979 he supported the Sandinista revolution in Nicaragua. [Fidel Castro - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro#Relations_with_the_outside_world) And he currently has close ties to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela – a government many, including Chavez, consider a “revolution” even though it came to power by free elections. So, yeh, kindasorta. But even that doesn’t matter much now, does it? Except for Chavez, all the left-wing revolutions Castro supported to date have failed. Even Chavez does not call himself a Marxist. (He prefers “Bolivarian.”) Neither do the Zapatista rebels in Mexico. There is really no possibility any more of international Marxist or Communist revolution in LA. The name of Marx has lost its power to conjure, and Castro is no longer any serious threat to anyone outside of Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/29 "2006-03-28T03:12:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why? Other than sugar and tobacco, what do they grow in Cuba that can’t be grown more cheaply in the U.S.? [/QUOTE] They want to _sell_ to cuba. [[QUOTE=About.com](http://QUOTE=About.com)] In 2000, Cuba ranked dead last among all 200+ nations in terms of agricultural purchases from the United States according to U.S. government figures. In 2001, Cuba’s ranking rose to 138. And in 2004, Cuba ranked 25th and bought $391 million dollars worth of American good. Early 2005 numbers show the trend continuing. Not bad considering the two countries haven’t had diplomatic relations for over 40 years. [/QUOTE] ([Link.](http://globalization.about.com/od/bigstories/a/cubaembargo.htm)) [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why? Cuba has no oil, does it? And if the execs wanted to **sell** them oil – how would the Cubans pay for it? Besides… [/QUOTE] I don’t know, but them’s the facts. I said “energy execs,” anyway. Maybe it had nothing to do with oil. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] (Cuba has the best medical-education system in the region… [/QUOTE] I know. And their doctors actually learn bed-side manners, from my experience. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] …and even does some original pharmaceutical research.) [/QUOTE] Yes. Cuba has developed a vaccine for hep C. Not even the U.S. has that yet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/30 "2006-03-28T04:06:31Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] They want to _sell_ to cuba. [/QUOTE] And how are the Cubans to pay for U.S. agricultural exports? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/31 "2006-03-28T04:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] There’s several reasons, anyways, that our relationship with Cuba is different from that with China: 1. America had a pretty big presence in Cuba, and with the old regime. Castro struck directly against that pissing off American business interests and by association politicians. 2. The whole Bay of Pigs–\>Cuban Missile Crisis thing. There’s not really an event too similar to that with China. There is the Korean war, but we’ve found it convenient to blame China’s involvement on MacArthur’s bellicose disobedience. 3. Cuba was always very close with the USSR, China on the other hand, specifically did not want to become subserviant to the USSR, thus it wanted to make it known that while it was Communist that didn’t mean it was in the Soviet sphere. So China was ready and willing to move closer to the United States during the Cold War, and strategically speaking the U.S. would have been stupid to take not take advantage of that. 4. The economic reasons already mentioned (ie China is big potatoes, Cuba is small potatoes.) 5. Cuban expats already mentioned. [/QUOTE] 6. What does Cuba have to offer us in return? Baseball players, a bunch of really good mechanics, and tons of 50-year-old Detroit iron. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/32 "2006-03-28T22:25:10Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] And how are the Cubans to pay for U.S. agricultural exports? [/QUOTE] Umm…with money? Believe it or not, Cuba does have dollars. A lot is coming in through tourism and the ex-pat _divisa_ economy. This [link](http://www.fb.org/issues/analysis/Cuba_Briefing_Issue10.html) might work better: [QUOTE=Voice of Agriculture website] U.S. agribusiness fared quite well too, contracting with Cuba for an estimated $52 million of additional products ranging from pasta and wine to milk cows. Shipments of these products will continue into 2003. Including these new purchases, Cuba has contracted for more than $150 million of US foods in the past 12 months, placing it in the top 50 of some 228 nations that buy our agricultural goods. (Food and medicines, paid for in cash, are the only US products allowed under the current Cuban sanctions.) Sponsor ADM and Cargill Inc., each of which sold about $10 million to the country, inked the fair’s biggest deals. President Fidel Castro personally signed several contracts **to show Cuba intends to pay for the US products on time**. [/QUOTE] (Bolding mine. So far as I know, nothing has changed since.) My understanding, however, is that some U.S. ag business is even trying to get financing approved, though I doubt that will happen soon. You seem to think that Cuba is completely destitute. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/33 "2006-03-28T22:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] 6) What does Cuba have to offer us in return? Baseball players, a bunch of really good mechanics, and tons of 50-year-old Detroit iron. [/QUOTE] You forgot: really, _really_, _ **really** _ good music. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729/34 "2006-03-28T22:31:16Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] You seem to think that Cuba is completely destitute. [/QUOTE] I know they **were,** for a few years after the Soviet Union collapsed – they even had a malnutrition problem – but they solved that by switching a lot of their land from growing sugar and tobacco for export to growing food for domestic consumption; and by adopting organic-farming methods that don’t require a lot of petroleum. But I didn’t think they were yet actually producing much of anything for export (except for sugar, doctors and pharmaceuticals), so they wouldn’t have much to trade with internationally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-trade-with-china-but-not-cuba/349729.md?page=1)