# Why do we treat infertility as if it's cancer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 2, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226 "2010-11-02T16:43:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/121 "2010-11-02T21:11:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This is still not comparable to simple infertility, in which there is nothing to grieve. Of course there’s something to grieve. A lost opportunity; the failure of a dream; the knowledge that your line ends when you die. Grief is not exclusively sadness over a death. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/122 "2010-11-02T21:13:10Z")
> [@Velma](#): > > I believe (but may be mistaken) that some species of animals do become depressed/distressed when their attempts to reproduce don’t result in a baby. I’ve never heard of that. > [@](#): > > Don’t some animals attempt to steal others’ offspring or eggs if they don’t have any? Isn’t that proof of the desire for offspring? What about animal mothers who ‘adopt’ other babies as their own? Is that proof of the motherly biological desire to nurture and raise babies in and of itself? The desire to _nurture_ offspring should be distinguished from the desire to _have_ offspring. Sure, if they see a young animal they might feel maternal feelings, even if it’s not their own offspring. They might be upset about not being able to mate, or seeing their offspring harmed. But that doesn’t mean that an infertile animal is upset about not being able to reproduce. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/123 "2010-11-02T21:14:47Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > I know for a fucking fact that I grieved, and still get pangs now and then. > > If you can point me to anywhere that anyone equated the death of a child with not being able to conceive, I’d appreciate it. You just did. Grieving is something you do when someone dies, not when you just can’t get something you want. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/124 "2010-11-02T21:17:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You just did. Grieving is something you do when someone dies, not when you just can’t get something you want. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grief](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grief) That word does not mean what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/125 "2010-11-02T21:18:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course there’s something to grieve. A lost opportunity; the failure of a dream; the knowledge that your line ends when you die. This is not grief. This is not loss. This is just not getting something you want. > [@](#): > > Grief is not exclusively sadness over a death. Grief is mental anguish over a loss. Not getting something you want is not losing anything. Believing that perpetuating your “line” is important is pure self-absorbtion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/126 "2010-11-02T21:19:30Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grief](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grief) > > That word does not mean what you think it means. [Yes it does.](http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+grief&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) ETA, even your own definition agrees with me. “Grief” is defined by LOSS. You can’t lose something that never existed. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/127 "2010-11-02T21:19:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > pure self-absorbtion. I wonder what that looks like… ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/128 "2010-11-02T21:21:06Z")
I said that I grieved over my own infertility. Whether or not you think that is worth grieving over is immaterial to my grief, which was and is real. Grief happens over more than literal death. Grief is a response to loss – of people, of opportunities, of ideas, of property. Not all grief is the same, nor should it be. The way I grieved over my father’s death is different than how I will grieve for my mother. I did not say that my grief was the same as it would be for someone who lost a child. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/129 "2010-11-02T21:21:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Yes it does.](http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+grief&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) Did you read anything but the first definition? •grieving - bereaved: sorrowful through loss or deprivation; “bereft of hope” •Pain of mind on account of something in the past; mental suffering arising from any cause, as misfortune, loss of friends, misconduct of one’s self or others, etc. … •intense emotional suffering caused by loss, disaster, misfortune, etc; extreme sorrow; deep sadness ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/130 "2010-11-02T21:21:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You just did. Grieving is something you do when someone dies, not when you just can’t get something you want. Oh, bullshit. Words can have more than one meaning. [Here are the results for a Google search of the phrase “I am grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=kI4&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&&sa=X&ei=sX_QTPaZBoyt8AbHvKGfBw&ved=0CBwQBSgA&q=%22I+am+grieved+by%22&spell=1&fp=2304850557947867) [Here are the results for “She was grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Uej&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22She+was+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) [Here are the results for “He is grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Afj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22He+is+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) [Here are the results for “We are grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=5K4&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22We+are+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22We+are+grieved+by%22&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) Just a cursory examinination of the phrases that come up will show that the sense “feeling sadness because of a death” is not the only one used. And here is the Oxford English dictionary definition: > [@](#): > > grieve /0gri:v/ verb. ME. > [ORIGIN Old French grever burden, encumber from Proto-Romance alt. of Latin gravare, from gravis grave adjective¹.] > > †1 verb trans. Harass, trouble, oppress; do wrong or harm to (a person). ME–M19. ▸ b Cause harm or damage to (a thing). ME–L16. > > †2 verb trans. & intrans. Do bodily or material injury (to). ME–E19. > > †3 verb trans. Affect with pain or disease. (Cf. grieved adjective 2.) ME–L16. > > 4 verb trans. Affect with grief or deep sorrow. Also, trouble, annoy, cause pain or anxiety to. ME. > > H. B. Stowe It really grieves me to have you be so naughty. I. Murdoch I…was grieved to see his tools so idle. > †5 verb trans. Make angry; offend. ME–M16. > > 6 verb intrans. Feel grief or distress; sorrow deeply at, for, about, over, to do. ME. ▸ b verb trans. Feel or show grief or regret at or for. Chiefly poet. L16. > > A. Alvarez She began to sob, weeping for her father as she had never grieved before. > > grievingly adverb with grief E17. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/131 "2010-11-02T21:22:37Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > I wonder what that looks like… \ ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/132 "2010-11-02T21:22:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Believing that perpetuating your “line” is important is pure self-absorbtion. And with that, I’m all done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/133 "2010-11-02T21:24:00Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > Did you read anything but the first definition? > > •grieving - bereaved: sorrowful through loss or deprivation; “bereft of hope” > •Pain of mind on account of something in the past; mental suffering arising from any cause, as misfortune, loss of friends, misconduct of one’s self or others, etc. … > •intense emotional suffering caused by loss, disaster, misfortune, etc; extreme sorrow; deep sadness None of this applies to infertility. Infertility does not involve any loss. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/134 "2010-11-02T21:24:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > None of this applies to infertility. Infertility does not involve any loss. grieving - bereaved: sorrowful through loss or **deprivation** ; “bereft of hope” \ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/135 "2010-11-02T21:26:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, bullshit. Words can have more than one meaning. > [Here are the results for a Google search of the phrase “I am grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=kI4&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&&sa=X&ei=sX_QTPaZBoyt8AbHvKGfBw&ved=0CBwQBSgA&q=%22I+am+grieved+by%22&spell=1&fp=2304850557947867) > > [Here are the results for “She was grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Uej&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22She+was+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) > > [Here are the results for “He is grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Afj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22He+is+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) > [Here are the results for “We are grieved by.”](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I+am+greived+by%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=5K4&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&q=%22We+are+grieved+by%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22We+are+grieved+by%22&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=2304850557947867) > > Just a cursory examinination of the phrases that come up will show that the sense “feeling sadness because of a death” is not the only one used. > > And here is the Oxford English dictionary definition: I didn’t say “death” was the sine non qua, I said LOSS was. Infertility involves no loss. Not getting something you want is not a loss. You can’t grieve for something you never had. Trying equate a frustrated desire with actual loss is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/136 "2010-11-02T21:27:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Yes it does.](http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+grief&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) > > ETA, even your own definition agrees with me. “Grief” is defined by LOSS. You can’t lose something that never existed. One can lose an opportunity. “If I hadn’t dropped outta high school, I coulda been somebody”. Naturally, not the same as being grieved by a death. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/137 "2010-11-02T21:27:47Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > grieving - bereaved: sorrowful through loss or **deprivation** ; “bereft of hope” > > \ Infertility does not _deprive_ anybody of anything. You can’t be deprived of something that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/138 "2010-11-02T21:28:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say “death” was the sine no quaa, I said LOSS was. Infertility involves no loss. Not getting something you want is not a loss. You can’t grieve for something you never had. Trying equate a frustrated desire with actual loss is bullshit. Can a man blind from birth not be “grieved” by his lack of sight? He hasn’t _lost_ anything. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/139 "2010-11-02T21:30:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say “death” was the sine no quaa, I said LOSS was. Infertility involves no loss. Not getting something you want is not a loss. You can’t grieve for something you never had. Trying equate a frustrated desire with actual loss is bullshit. So, let’s say you always wanted to be a Mom. Let’s say that you can’t adopt or it will be difficult to adopt given your sexual orientation, financial status or other reasons (there are many). Let’s say this is the only thing you ever wanted to do with your life. You don’t think the loss of that dream is a loss? You don’t think the person involved should be upset by it and that they couldn’t get to the point of grief? Wish I could continue to chat but my story did have a happy ending and I have to go pick up my (adopted) kids from daycare. I was very lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226/140 "2010-11-02T21:30:22Z")
No he hasn’t, but at least he would have an actual disability and a real problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-we-treat-infertility-as-if-its-cancer/559226.md?page=8)