# Why do you hate Hillary Rodham Clinton? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261 "2004-07-02T19:20:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/81 "2004-07-04T08:01:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > [For anybody’s who’s interested in researching, here’s direct links to ClintonCare.](http://www.ibiblio.org/nhs/NHS-T-o-C.html) > > Read the speech to Congress, which pretty much scuttled the plan. Bill Clinton proposed massive new taxes on small businesses in this speech. It would be really, really helpful if you could quote the part where he said that. It’s a very long speech. I found this: “I believe as strongly as I can say that we can reform the costliest and most wasteful system on the face of the Earth **without** enacting new broad-based taxes.” And he did propose new taxes on tobacco. But where’s the part where he proposes “massive new taxes on small businesses”? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/82 "2004-07-04T08:13:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. A Flat tax is a right-wing code word for flat tax. It can be done and the Russians are doing it. Simple question for you: Have the various flat-tax proposals that have been made by politicians in the U.S. proposed to eliminate taxes on capital gains and other unearned income, or have they not? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/83 "2004-07-04T11:13:16Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Phew! Thanks for clearing that up. I don’t claim to know you at all. I was merely surprised at your claim of admiring her so much. I did search for context, and darn it all if the “whore” and “bitch” quotes seemed to be self-explanatory. But you’ve explained everything, so I understand now. Sorry for the misunderstanding. > > Oh, by the way, I found all of these by searching for posts by you with the word Hillary, and not a single one of them expressed any admiration. That’s why I didn’t include any posts of yours expressing admiration for her. Here’s one so recent that I didn’t even need the search engine. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4969643&postcount=110](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4969643&postcount=110) > [@](#): > > I recently opened a thread praising Kerry for taking the high road and saying that Bush should follow his example. I also happen to admire Hillary Clinton. I just think her husband is a jackass hayseed who ought to understand how his actions can affect her career. > [@Guin](#): > > As for Lib, perhaps you could add the word “Classic” to your name, and go as Classic Liberal?) Perhaps. But besides the fact that the admins don’t like changing names too often, perhaps we could recommend that liberals return to their roots. Henry David Thoreau was a liberal. He did not like the idea of people deciding what was good for him. “If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life.” (_Walden_) What do you suppose he would make of Hillary’s “We’re going to take things from you for the common good” speech? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/84 "2004-07-04T11:16:18Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Simple question for you: Have the various flat-tax proposals that have been made by politicians in the U.S. proposed to eliminate taxes on capital gains and other unearned income, or have they not? You really need to stop fetishing on the Armey plan, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/85 "2004-07-04T13:08:52Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Isn’t that a pretty lame reason to hate someone? I mean, I don’t hate any conservatives just because they’re conservative. It’s an exaggeration to say that I “hate” Hilary. I was just playing along with the OP. I disagree with her political beliefs, in some cases very strongly. And I find that her long association with a particularly dishonest politician, and the mendacity that association led Hilary to embrace, makes her a politician I oppose. She is considered a likely candidate in 2008. FWIW, I would consider her a better candidate than Kerry is now. But I don’t “hate” her in the way that a lot of Dopers “hate” Bush. In other words, I can participate in a political thread without turning it into an attack on her. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/86 "2004-07-04T14:31:57Z")
My apologies for missing that one, **Liberal**. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/87 "2004-07-04T14:55:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And I find that her long association with a particularly dishonest politician, and the mendacity that association led Hilary to embrace, makes her a politician I oppose. I didn’t realize that Hillary was really that close to G.W. Bush. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/88 "2004-07-04T14:55:56Z")
Apology accepted. I’m no better than you when it comes to pigeonholing people based on my own perceptions of their history. I shouldn’t have been so defensive. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/89 "2004-07-04T18:24:28Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Any politician, male or female, who has reached a position where election as president is a realistic possibility will have fervent opponents as well as fervent supporters. Libby Dole included. You’re presenting a hypothetical against a concrete example… Can you think of a single (US) female politician, living or dead, who has/had as many detractors as Clinton does? True, people _might_ hate another woman who may run, but people _do_ hate Clinton already, so I’d say your any person would potentially be far better received…Unless of course, we resurect Evita Peron and repeal the law that prohibits people not born in the US from becoming president and had her run in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/90 "2004-07-04T19:26:35Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > It would be really, really helpful if you could quote the part where he said that. It’s a very long speech. I found this: > > “I believe as strongly as I can say that we can reform the costliest and most wasteful system on the face of the Earth **without** enacting new broad-based taxes.” > > And he did propose new taxes on tobacco. But where’s the part where he proposes “massive new taxes on small businesses”? My fault. I should have characterized it as a massive unfunded mandate on small businesses. The end result is the same, though. Someone has to pay the bill, the money has to come from somewhere. Nothing is free. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/91 "2004-07-04T20:09:59Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > My fault. I should have characterized it as a massive unfunded mandate on small businesses. O.K., do you have that quote for us? > [@](#): > > The end result is the same, though. Someone has to pay the bill, the money has to come from somewhere. Nothing is free. No, nothing is free, but are you happy with the current system in which many Americans have no health insurance? Roads and schools aren’t free either, but certainly you wouldn’t want to get rid of them, would you? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/92 "2004-07-04T20:11:58Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You really need to stop fetishing on the Armey plan, you know. I have no idea what that sentence is supposed to mean. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/93 "2004-07-04T20:12:19Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Roads and schools aren’t free either, but certainly you wouldn’t want to get rid of them, would you? Don’t tempt them. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/94 "2004-07-04T20:18:41Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > You really need to stop fetishing on the Armey plan, you know. Oh, wait - I think I figured out what you’re trying to say. No, I was thinking more of Forbes’ flat-tax proposal. But I challenge you to show us _any_ flat-tax proposal made by _any_ republican in the U.S. that _wasn’t_ just an excuse to give a big break to the wealthy by eliminating taxes on unearned income. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/95 "2004-07-04T20:33:01Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Oh, wait - I think I figured out what you’re trying to say. No, I was thinking more of Forbes’ flat-tax proposal. But I challenge you to show us _any_ flat-tax proposal made by _any_ republican in the U.S. that _wasn’t_ just an excuse to give a big break to the wealthy by eliminating taxes on unearned income. I’d also challenge them to show us one that made **all** taxes at a flat rate rather than just the progressive ones. E.g., if you make the income tax flat then what you are left with is one flat tax coupled with the regressive payroll taxes (regressive both because they apply only to earned income and because they cut out after a certain income) and generally regressive state taxes (see [here](http://www.ctj.org/itep/whopays.htm) for a state-by-state analysis). “I think the most progressive taxes should be made flat and the regressive ones are not our problem” is not a recipe for obtaining an overall flat tax structure. [Not that I think an overall flat structure is a necessarily a good goal anyway…But, I sure as hell feel a regressive structure is not a good goal!] ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/96 "2004-07-04T20:37:09Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > You’re presenting a hypothetical against a concrete example… Can you think of a single (US) female politician, living or dead, who has/had as many detractors as Clinton does? Eleanor Roosevelt, who, except that she didn’t run for the Senate after her husband died, played much the same role as Clinton. Can you think of a single (US) female politician, living or dead, who has/had as many supporters as Clinton does? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/97 "2004-07-04T21:21:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **I’m** a socialist, **Magiver.** Well, not in **Olentzero’s** judgment, but never mind that. Just out of curiosity, **BG** , what exactly did this contribute to the argument as a whole? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/98 "2004-07-04T23:04:00Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Eleanor Roosevelt, who, except that she didn’t run for the Senate after her husband died, played much the same role as Clinton. Can you think of a single (US) female politician, living or dead, who has/had as many supporters as Clinton does? Hard to measure that except with votes, but Sens. Feinstein and Boxer were elected with something like as many votes as Clinton got in NY, and maybe more. Ex-Sen. Braun of IL is in that league, too. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/99 "2004-07-04T23:17:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I disagree. A Flat tax is a right-wing code word for flat tax. It can be done and the Russians are doing it. And the result here would be the precise same it was in Russia – a massive, massive transfer of wealth to the upper class. A flat tax soaks the poor, slams the middle class and gives a giant bear hug and kiss to the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261/100 "2004-07-04T23:23:02Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > And the result here would be the precise same it was in Russia – I was about to say… I wouldn’t be holding _RUSSIA_ up as an economic model. O\_o (BTW, Russia just nationalized their largest oil company, you still think we should be Russian?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-hate-hillary-rodham-clinton/253261.md?page=6)