# Why do you have belief in a god? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177 "2003-01-22T06:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/141 "2003-01-26T20:57:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > > The night dream is real in that it happens; the thoughts and images are real in that they are perceived to exist, as percepts. And at the time it is happening, while I’m a dreamt character the dream is real to me……UNTIL I wake up. > > Upon awaking I enter another level of awareness in which the night dream appears as illusion.—in relation to what we call the waking state. So we call it an illusion only from the perspective of this other state. We agree here 🙂 > [@](#): > > But many apparently have woken up from this “awakened state” while it continues and perceived it also as an illusion. Except that since only awareness is innate, you can’t know if you have _really_ “woken up” from the waking state. > [@](#): > > You do and you don’t. You ponder, reflect upon what you perceive and take to be your **self** , small s and eventually recognize that what you perceive to be this self is being observed so it can’t be you, because **You** are observing it. I guess, this is your core argument. That this observing entity, your consciousness, since it’s observing something that you perceive to be the self, has to be detached from the self and hence that is the real self and not the object of observation. Is that right ? If so, are you sure you are “observing” your self ? I can have thoughts which aren’t observations. The brain doesn’t limit what it can “think”. Like I said, without a separate entity, you can’t verify what you “observe” is “real”. ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/142 "2003-01-27T00:41:29Z")
\*\* Gyan9\*\* Wrote: > [@](#): > > Except that since only awareness is innate, you can’t know if you have _really_ “woken up” from the waking state. I know when I wake up from night dream. In a similar way I can know that I wake up from the waking state. The waking up from the waking state would render it an illusion, as I would perceive it as a mental construct. > [@](#): > > I guess, this is your core argument. That this observing entity, your consciousness, since it’s observing something that you perceive to be the self, has to be detached from the self and hence that is the real self and not the object of observation. > > Is that right ? The object of observation is not the real self, it is the ego/body self, a fiction. The real self is the observing self, or consciousness. If that is what you are saying I agree. > [@](#): > > If so, are you sure you are “observing” your self ? I am observing the ego/body self. The “observing self” cannot be observed. > [@](#): > > I can have thoughts which aren’t observations. If you are aware of them they are observations. > [@](#): > > The brain doesn’t limit what it can “think”. Like I said, without a separate entity, you can’t verify what you “observe” is “real”. I am **not** saying it is real. I am saying what I observe is an idea, thought or mental image. The mind or the minds contents (all things perceivable) is an object to a subject, which is consciousness. Consciousness is the entity…so I think.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/143 "2003-01-27T01:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > I am **not** saying it is real. I am saying what I observe is an idea, thought or mental image. > > The mind or the minds contents (all things perceivable) is an object to a subject, which is consciousness. > > Consciousness is the entity…so I think.🙂 So you _think_ ? A question : can the consciousness ever untie itself from it’s slave ? ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/144 "2003-01-27T03:27:58Z")
\*\* Gyan9\*\* wrote: > [@](#): > > A question : can the consciousness ever untie itself from it’s slave ? Interesting way of putting it. Yes, I think so. If this existence is an illusion then the awareness doesn’t die when the body dies, and existed before it was born. And we can speculate that it can have other content besides this existence. Or have no content at all. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/145 "2003-01-27T03:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > \*\* > If this existence is an illusion then the awareness doesn’t die when the body dies, and existed before it was born. > \*\* Then does this awareness have its own memory or does it depend on the slave body to provide it that ? ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/146 "2003-01-27T04:45:42Z")
\*\* Gyan9\*\* > [@](#): > > Then does this awareness have its own memory or does it depend on the slave body to provide it that ? I don’t know. I don’t at present remember other lifes but that’s not to say they did not occur. Some claim to remember. What do you mean with your use of the word “slave”? If the body/brain mechanism is needed by the observing self to access and interact in this existence, in what way is it a slave? Isn’t it more like a “medium”? Consider the nature of an illusion or dream. The entire contents is images and ideas in your mind so it is all you. Some people have had the experience of nonlocal consciousness where they are the entire manifestation, or more correctly they are what they perceive. As Krishnamurti said, “Consciousness is its contents.” And I would add, transcends it. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/147 "2003-01-27T05:17:24Z")
**Iamthat** Do you believe its possible for consciousness to be a self-contained and self-sustained function of the brain ? ---
**Author:** ![Thrasymachus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Thrasymachus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thrasymachus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/148 "2003-01-27T07:32:02Z")
Sorry to come to the party a bit late, but since it seems folks are already debating I thought I’d address this point… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mithrilhawk \* > \*\*I counter with a monkey at the keyboard. Given infinite time (and supply of typing monkeys) you may come up with a few sentences in a row that might make some logical sense. But the monkey will never randomly create literature. \*\* Bear in mind that atoms are a little different than letters. Imagine that “Q” and “U” readily form covalent bonds together and are attracted, or that basic combinations like “The” form frequently and are naturally stable reagents with other words. Or let’s say Z’s are far less common than E’s in the ocean of letters because they aren’t as soluble. That would be a better analogy. Randomness does not mean equal probability of any occurence necessarily since there are other mechanisms in play. For example, a simple star is hard to make if all that’s allowed is stirring hydrogen soup. Add gravity, and success is virtually assured - no matter where the atoms are thrown, they’ll clump up and eventually begin fusion. So, all your allegorical monkeys need create are a few self-replicating paragraphs that mate with each other. If they compete, and the larger more elqouent ones get to reproduce their offspring, then Planet Pulitzer could teeming with literature in a few billion years. The possibility would also have to be considered that the books produced might not be in a language or style we would recognize, but be literature in their own right. Just as if the evolution process were restarted here on Earth, modern man would likely not emerge from it again, but speciation, the concept of “food”, and reproduction would be recognizable in some fashion. The “pocket watch” chestnut has similar flaws. Sure, what are the odds of a spontaneous watch, just like that? But if one were to dig back to the fossilized remains of an earlier time in Watch World and find evidence of hand-like tadpoles that swum, and gear colonies that formed like moss, and little clam-like cases that could flip open, but hadn’t evolved works or dials yet, then the puzzle of the watch’s origin becomes substantially clearer. ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/149 "2003-01-27T20:19:51Z")
**Gyan9** > [@](#): > > Do you believe its possible for consciousness to be a self-contained and self-sustained function of the brain ? I think that that is true is part of the illusion. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/150 "2003-01-28T01:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > > I think that that is true is part of the illusion. \*\* I don’t understand your response. Is it possible ? Not whether it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/151 "2003-01-28T01:57:49Z")
\*\* Gyan9\*\* > [@](#): > > I don’t understand your response. Is it possible ? Not whether it’s true. > [@](#): > > Do you believe its possible for consciousness to be a self-contained and self-sustained function of the brain ? It appears that way. But I do not believe that consciousness is a self-contained and self-sustained function of the brain, as you put it. Therefore I do not believe it is possible. I believe that consciousness is the entire manifestation and transcends it. I think we agreed that consciousness as “self” is not **in-and-of-itself** , as it cannot be located or perceived. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/152 "2003-01-28T03:30:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > > But I do not believe that consciousness is a self-contained and self-sustained function of the brain, as you put it. > > Therefore I do not believe it is possible. > > I think we agreed that consciousness as “self” is not **in-and-of-itself** , as it cannot be located or perceived. \*\* I understand your first sentence. But that is an assertion and not a justification for the second sentence. I don’t understand the semantics of the bolded words. Can you rephrase the last sentence in more distinct terms ? ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/153 "2003-01-28T06:12:31Z")
I do not believe consciousness is contained by the brain. * * * I was using the term in-and-of itself to refer to something that I am rather then something I perceive. Something that IS me, as **being**. **Being** in and of itself. But with the “self” as consciousness or awareness that is not the case, or at least given my ignorance it is not experienced that way. Although a sage may experience the manifested that way; as nondual. Since we perceive everything in a subject----object relation there is always a distance between me, as subject (as awareness), and the percept as object, whether it is a mental image or a material object, or whatever. In terms of what I am “aware of" there is nothing that is me, so in that sense I am nothing. In that way consciousness transcends what it is aware of. In Buddhism, Vedanta and other nondual beliefs they say that the ground of the manifested universe is emptiness, or nothingness and I think that that can be indicated or evident in the “awareness” that we are. That is what I meant earlier when I agreed with you when you said the self cannot be perceived. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/154 "2003-01-28T06:16:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > \*\*I do not believe consciousness is contained by the brain. > \*\* Why and how ? ---
**Author:** ![Iamthat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Iamthat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iamthat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/155 "2003-01-28T06:50:57Z")
I believe consciousness works through the brain but is not contained by or in it. And this belief is based on what I understand about the nature of human perception, consciousness and nondualism. Anyway I think we have been over this already. So that will be it for me unless you put something forward. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/156 "2003-01-28T06:53:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > \*\*I believe consciousness works through the brain but is not contained by or in it. And this belief is based on what I understand about the nature of human perception, consciousness and nondualism. > \*\* What tool/entity do you use to “understand” the above ? ---
**Author:** ![Jberto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@Jberto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jberto)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177/157 "2003-01-30T22:17:41Z")
Man needs to make sense out of life and find order. Faith helps make sense of reality. We extrapolate from our own experience. We see that babies come from parents, so there must be some ultimate beginning to humanity, to all species, to the universe. Thus there must a single being or entity that created it all, right? Beats me. Sometimes I wonder if man created God rather than the other way around. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-have-belief-in-a-god/150177.md?page=7)