# Why do you need a gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873 "2013-01-11T17:22:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/321 "2013-01-16T01:14:29Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > I guess when your guns are taken away you’ll be shit out of luck then. Next. Glad you finally got it. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/322 "2013-01-16T01:22:16Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > Glad you finally got it. That’s a joke, sorry. btw I find it fascinating when a right winger pulls up decision by a right-wing court as a justification for more right-wing rhetoric. someone else might assume the solution is to appoint less psychotic justices. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/323 "2013-01-16T01:30:57Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > That’s a joke, sorry. > > btw I find it fascinating when a right winger pulls up decision by a right-wing court as a justification for more right-wing rhetoric. someone else might assume the solution is to appoint less psychotic justices. And it’s interesting when people toss around right winger so much, don’t you think? Kind of says something about them… ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/324 "2013-01-16T01:32:27Z")
> [@XT](#): > > And it’s interesting when people toss around right winger so much, don’t you think? Kind of says something about them… All of the sites linking to that court case are anti-gun control, kind of says something then, no? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/325 "2013-01-16T01:40:41Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > All of the sites linking to that court case are anti-gun control, kind of says something then, no? How about this one? > **[Warren v. District of Columbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia)** > > Warren v. District of Columbia (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981) is a District of Columbia Court of Appeals case that held that the police do not owe a specific duty to provide police services to specific citizens based on the public duty doctrine. > In separate cases, Carolyn Warren, Miriam Douglas, Joan Taliaferro, and Wilfred Nichol sued the District of Columbia and individual members of the Metropolitan Police Department for negligent failure to provide adequate police services. The trial ... Or this one? [http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0) This is a pretty well established a famous (or perhaps notorious) legal principle. I’m somewhat suprised that any well-read person is not aware of it. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/326 "2013-01-16T01:46:20Z")
Citing a court case that limits how you can sue the police if they fuck up is not a justification for everyone to hole up in their house with weapons. Again, the police provide protection. They are human, sometimes they do a terrible job of it. Millions of untracked weapons floating around are not making society safer on a whole. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/327 "2013-01-16T01:51:59Z")
The idea that the police have a duty to protect people on an individual basis is so practically unworkable that’s it’s ridiculous. There simply aren’t enough police to act as armed guards for every individual. Some years ago, I (along with several coworkers) was on the receiving end of a death threat from a disgruntled, and seemingly mentally-unbalanced coworker. The company hired a private guard (off-duty police officer) to sit out front of our 200-acre premises for ONE DAY. No police ever guarded my house, or that of my coworkers. I had a long discussion with the police about my relative risk at home vs. at work. A lot of things were said. One thing the police never said to me was “Get rid of your guns. They’ll make you less safe.” ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/328 "2013-01-16T01:55:08Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > Citing a court case that limits how you can sue the police if they fuck up is not a justification for everyone to hole up in their house with weapons. > > Again, the police provide protection. They are human, sometimes they do a terrible job of it. Millions of untracked weapons floating around are not making society safer on a whole. Of course it is. You misunderstand the court cases. It’s not about suing the police after they don’t protect you, it’s about the fact that the police have NO DUTY to protect you as an individual. Their duty is to society as a whole. If the police have no duty to protect the individual, who does? This is really not that hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/329 "2013-01-16T01:57:32Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Some years ago, I (along with several coworkers) was on the receiving end of a death threat from a disgruntled, and seemingly mentally-unbalanced coworker. The company hired a private guard (off-duty police officer) to sit out front of our 200-acre premises for ONE DAY. No police ever guarded my house, or that of my coworkers. Well you should be happy then about the laws just passed in New York: > [@](#): > > Requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient’s gun could be taken from him or her, as well. > **[U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics,...](https://www.nbcnews.com/us-news?lite)** > > Get the latest news headlines and top stories from NBCNews.com. Find videos and news articles on the latest stories in the US. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/330 "2013-01-16T02:03:54Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Of course it is. You misunderstand the court cases. It’s not about suing the police after they don’t protect you, it’s about the fact that the police have NO DUTY to protect you as an individual. Their duty is to society as a whole. If the police have no duty to protect the individual, who does? This is really not that hard to understand. And you are misunderstanding me. I think as a society we would be better off if all guns were registered and tracked, if owners were better trained and guns kept in gun lockers etc. There’s just too many guns floating around. _There would be less to fear there were fewer guns floating around._ I don’t have an issue with responsible gun owners, they can huddle in their houses being as paranoid as they want (since the justification for owning guns seems to be that no one will protect you and/or we need to defend against tyranny). ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/331 "2013-01-16T02:03:57Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > Well you should be happy then about the laws just passed in New York: > > [U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics, Economy, and Society | NBC News](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/15/16515653-new-york-passes-major-gun-control-law-first-since-newtown-massacre?lite) As much as I’m personally convinced the man who made the threats was/is dangerous, I’m not convinced that we should, as a society, be taking peoples’ rights away without the due process of law. By that I mean a trial. If I was king, I’d be decreeing “that guy can’t have a gun” in a minute. But that’s not the way a constitutionally-protected republic works. I don’t get to decide, and neither should one individual who perhaps has an agenda. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/332 "2013-01-16T02:13:12Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > And you are misunderstanding me. I think as a society we would be better off if all guns were registered and tracked, if owners were better trained and guns kept in gun lockers etc. There’s just too many guns floating around. There would be less to fear there were fewer guns freely available. I have no issue with responsible gun owners, they can huddle in their houses and be as paranoid as they want. I asked the police if they considered my case to be a serious threat, or it was perhaps just harmless rambling by a pissed off guy. I remember the words near exactly: “We consider this threat to be the most serious we’ve seen.” Maybe the police are paranoid,too. The first part of your post is rationally defensible. The last part; “…they can huddle in their houses and be as paranoid as they want” does not help your cause. You’ve already seen many examples of legitnate threats in the multiple gun threads in which you’ve commented. To discount ALL threats as paranoid, or to claim that ALL threats can be stopped by the police, is demonstrably wrong. I understand that you don’t like guns, an believe that society overall would be better with fewer of them, and if they were better controlled. But the insults aren’t going to help you much. ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/333 "2013-01-16T02:17:36Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > All of the sites linking to that court case are anti-gun control, kind of says something then, no? There’s also Warren v. District of Columbia. The bottom line is that no, the police are not there to save you; they have no responsibility to do so, and you cannot pursue legal remedies against them for failing to rescue you, even if they quite clearly could have done so. This is a legal fact and has been for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/334 "2013-01-16T02:20:27Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > I understand that you don’t like guns, an believe that society overall would be better with fewer of them, and if they were better controlled. But the insults aren’t going to help you much. Sorry, but I feel I can use the word paranoid clinically when people are justifying 300 million guns floating around the country because we are all going to be attacked by gun-toting criminals (the irony of course that the criminals have guns because they’re easy to get) or to defend against tyranny. And any attempts to control the enormous wash of guns out there means I’m a gun-control nut. I understand there are legitimate reasons to have guns. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/335 "2013-01-16T02:25:06Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > And you are misunderstanding me. I think as a society we would be better off if all guns were registered and tracked, if owners were better trained and guns kept in gun lockers etc. There’s just too many guns floating around. _There would be less to fear there were fewer guns floating around._ I don’t have an issue with responsible gun owners, they can huddle in their houses being as paranoid as they want (since the justification for owning guns seems to be that no one will protect you and/or we need to defend against tyranny). Regarding this point: “_There would be less to fear there were fewer guns floating around._” The trouble is, who’s more likely to give up his guns if they were made illegal, me or the guy who wants to kill me? He is dangerous and nutty, not stupid. He can get a gun. I’m small of stature, and on the edge between “middle-aged” and “old”. There’s a reason Sam Colt’s gun was called “The Equalizer”. When I talked to the police about a potential attack and where it might happen, they readily admitted that in my own home was the least likely place, and at work was the most likely. They know I’m armed at home, and most places outside of home, other than work. Company policy prohibits guns at work. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/336 "2013-01-16T02:29:51Z")
Once again, Warren v. DC. It has been repeatedly upheld that the police have no responsibility to protect you. It doesn’t matter whether they are inept, malicious, or genuinely trying their hardest… As I have already mentioned, you CANNOT expect the police to prevent a crime and you legally CANNOT hold them responsible for their failure… Even when that failure involved gross negligence as it did in the Warren case. ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/337 "2013-01-16T02:33:32Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Once again, Warren v. DC. It has been repeatedly upheld that the police have no responsibility to protect you. It doesn’t matter whether they are inept, malicious, or genuinely trying their hardest… As I have already mentioned, you CANNOT expect the police to prevent a crime and you legally CANNOT hold them responsible for their failure… Even when that failure involved gross negligence as it did in the Warren case. Here’s a thought experiment. Let say you call the police right now and say “someone is attacking my house.” What will happen? I’ve called the police and know what happens, I’m just curious if you do. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/338 "2013-01-16T02:33:52Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > Sorry, but I feel I can use the word paranoid clinically when people are justifying 300 million guns floating around the country because we are all going to be attacked by gun-toting criminals (the irony of course that the criminals have guns because they’re easy to get) or to defend against tyranny. And any attempts to control the enormous wash of guns out there means I’m a gun-control nut. > > I understand there are legitimate reasons to have guns. Thanks for the clarification. As they say, you’re not really “paranoid” if people really are out to get you. There are lots of examples in the recent gun threads about legitimate threats or actual attacks. I’m happy for you if you’ve never been attacked or threatened. You’ve been lucky, or maybe real careful. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/339 "2013-01-16T02:43:21Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > You do understand that you may have to shoot an attacker multiple times before he goes down? It’s not like in the movies: people don’t just drop dead with the first bullet hit. Add to that the fact that you’re aiming at a moving target, and some of your shots may well miss. You may also find yourself facing more than one attacker. You definitely need more than one or two bullets in a gun used for self-defense. > > And there’s not much difference between a 30 round magazine and three 10-round magazines (except that the larger magazines are more likely to cause the gun to jam). It only takes a second or so to change magazines. So a shooter who intends to kill a lot of people can just carry a lot of loaded magazines (which is what the Virginia Tech shooter did; most of the magazines he used held only 10 rounds). But is the purpose of guns to kill people? You do not necessarily have to kill the person if you are just defending yourself. Even if you don’t kill them, you can still defend yourself by just calling the police because if you even shoot one or two bullets, that will seriously injure the guy or at least hurt real bad, and in that time, couldn’t you just call the police? Remember we are not trying to kill the intruder, but defend ourselves from them. And worst case scenario, just reload your gun. So do you really need more than two or even three bullets if you ar just using it for self-defense? ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873/340 "2013-01-16T02:45:13Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > Here’s a thought experiment. Let say you call the police right now and say “someone is attacking my house.” What will happen? I’ve called the police and know what happens, I’m just curious if you do. Did you even read the case? I dont need a hypothetical because this happened on real life. These girls were raped for fourteen hours straight because they called 911 and the police did squat. Maybe I should be allowed to make my own decision about my safety instead of letting Feinstein make the decision for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-need-a-gun/646873.md?page=18)