# Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172 "2010-02-23T21:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/61 "2010-02-24T01:01:16Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > The hell it can’t. > > “All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect…Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers.” 1 Timothy 6:1ff > “To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord.” Colossians 3:22 > “You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves…” Colossians 4:1 > > “Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior.” Titus 2:9 > “The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him…Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery…” 1 Corinthians 7:17ff > In the Epistle, Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he (Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own. > > We have every reason to accept that Paul thought there was nothing wrong with slavery…and there is plenty of evidence in scripture for it. > > I’ll get back to you on the other stuff soon. Take your time. You’re going to need to defend these first. This ain’t my first GD rodeo. If you can cut and paste 'em, you’re going to need to put your own thoughts into them. We’ll see if they say what you imply, k? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/62 "2010-02-24T01:03:00Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Your assertion fails on 3 major points: > > 1. Jesus had a narrow message. The things he taught were in furtherance of that message. As a result, he did not speak on any matter that detracted from that message. > > At the time he walked the earth the Jews lived under bitter Roman domination. Yet forget about slavery------- how many social issues did he speak about? None. > > Did he speak about the Romans? The [politics of the] Sanhedrin? He was narrowly focused on God’s kingdom and what people needed to do to gain entrance to that kingdom. How does any of that make any “assertion” I have made in this thread “fail?” > [@](#): > > The fact is, slavery was just one of many “social ills” he might have experienced. (and that he didn’t directly address) His “fix” to all these ills was God’s coming kingdom. At one point Jesus was so popular that there was a movement to make home King----and he fled instead. To the extent he addressed temporal issues it was on an individual basis-----not societal----- and in furtherance of a atemporal goals. Talk about a lack of evidence!!! Show me any evidence outside of scripture that anyone tried to make Jesus a King! > [@](#): > > So in the end we don’t know what his views of slavery was. No we don’t…and I haven’t said we do. I am asking why he did not condemn it. It is reasonable to assume I am saying he did not think there was anything wrong with it…and I have said that. I have also given my reason for thinking that he thought there was nothing wrong with it. > [@](#): > > It’s possible that he thought a “March on Jerusalem” was the equivalent of “giving a man a fish” when his message was the equivalent of _ **teaching generations to fish.** _ I don’t know what that means…or what it has to do with the thread. > [@](#): > > You say/imply that they were all good with slavery because he didn’t address slavery, but if his teachings were applied across the social spectrum----------and in every context, business, family, societal, etc------many “evils” would simply evaporate. I am saying he did not condemn slavery. If you have any evidence that he did…furnish it. > [@](#): > > In other words, he proposed the solutions, but you didn’t hear them because they weren’t delivered in the way you wanted. > > Which brings us to your other failing… > > 1. We don’t know how any of them felt about slavery, Paul included. Paul too was interested in the furtherance of Jesus’s message. He went so far in this endeavor to suggest that a person might be more effective in spiritual aims if they remain unmarried! I given you several citations about how Paul felt about slavery…and I’ve given you a citation to a passage that might make it clear why they thought there was nothing wrong with slavery. Try dealing with that…if you are able. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/63 "2010-02-24T01:03:46Z")
I think that Titus 2:9 implies that slaves are to be submissive to their masters, and they should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior. What do you think, **raindog**? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/64 "2010-02-24T01:04:02Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Take your time. > > You’re going to need to defend these first. > > This ain’t my first GD rodeo. If you can cut and paste 'em, you’re going to need to put your own thoughts into them. > > We’ll see if they say what you imply, k? Deal with them or don’t deal with them. But don’t play games. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/65 "2010-02-24T01:05:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think that Titus 2:9 implies that slaves are to be submissive to their masters, and they should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior. > > What do you think? I think that Jesus and Paul thought there was NOTHING wrong with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/66 "2010-02-24T01:06:43Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The bible has also been used to _support_ slavery and racism. Whatever its other qualities the book is a Rorschach blot - people can see _whatever_ they want in it. It has? To what extent? Lets muse the 20th century-----the century the OP seems to consider the arbiter for the past. :dubious::smack: Whats been the totality of the evidence? Get serious. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/67 "2010-02-24T01:10:22Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > It has? > > To what extent? Lets muse the 20th century-----the century the OP seems to consider the arbiter for the past. :dubious::smack: > > Whats been the totality of the evidence? > > Get serious. [http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm](http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm) Well, that was a five-second google. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/68 "2010-02-24T01:11:06Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Deal with them or don’t deal with them. > > But don’t play games. Play games? You posted some texts. You want to go through them one by one? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/69 "2010-02-24T01:18:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > [http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm](http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa112598.htm) > > Well, that was a five-second google. You’re kidding, right? What was your search term, sport? Ask an apple pie question you’ll get an apple pie answer. Should I let my daughter date a fine young African American young man? [Apparently not.](http://www.scripturesforamerica.org/html2/jm0074a.htm) A five second Google. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/70 "2010-02-24T01:19:30Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > It has? > > To what extent? Lets muse the 20th century-----the century the OP seems to consider the arbiter for the past. :dubious::smack: > > Whats been the totality of the evidence? > > Get serious. People used the Bible to support slavery, and condemn slavery. People use the Bible to support gay rights, and to condemn gay rights. A thousand and one variants of Christianity have sprung up based on readings of the Bible. And of course Jews have written volume upon volume of commentary and commentary upon commentary on what the Bible actually means. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/71 "2010-02-24T01:22:12Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Play games? > > You posted some texts. You want to go through them one by one? You challenged me with: “Your implying that they “saw nothing wrong with slavery” can’t be supported in the texts.” I have produced the text that I say do support the notion that they saw nothing wrong with slavery. Do what you want to with them…and if I see a need to respond I will. The support my position as far as I am concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/72 "2010-02-24T01:23:42Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jesus’ comment about slavery: > > Originally Posted by John 8 > 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” > > 33They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants\*\* and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” > > 34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I’m sure the fact that both plantation owner and field worker were equally slaves made the sting of the whip feel much better. If Christianity condemned slavery in clear terms, how come it took nearly 1800 years for Christians to figure it out? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/73 "2010-02-24T01:24:47Z")
Here is the reason I think neither Jesus nor Paul thought there was anything wrong with slavery: “Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen.” Leviticus 25:44ff That passage quotes what the god they both worshipped had to say about slavery. The god they worshipped…said there is nothing wrong with slavery. That is why I think they thought there was nothing wrong with slavery. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/74 "2010-02-24T01:26:15Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > You challenged me with: “Your implying that they “saw nothing wrong with slavery” can’t be supported in the texts.” > > I have produced the text that I say do support the notion that they saw nothing wrong with slavery. > > Do what you want to with them…and if I see a need to respond I will. > > The support my position as far as I am concerned. **Frank apisa** We seem to get OPs like yours that either show a total aversion to biblical cites, or the opposite----boodles of them. Yet, they rarely offer a thoughtful commentary. It feels like they’re throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks. The basis of my objection to your OP is in post #54, and your texts will be filtered by it. And I appreciate that you posted some texts in post #59. Why don’t we slow down and evaluate them in that context? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/75 "2010-02-24T01:27:26Z")
The only way I can think of Jesus being excused is if he did condemn slavery, but those words got edited out by the Gospel writers. They figure they could get the slaves by offering pie in the sky after they die, and they wouldn’t get the rich slave owners if they actually condemned slavery, so marketingwise it didn’t fly. But it is more likely he didn’t care since everyone was going to go to heaven soon anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/76 "2010-02-24T01:29:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Someone with a genuine pipeline to a superior being would be able to produce all sorts of useful knowledge that the people of the time couldn’t possibly know. If he’d, for example, described the rudiments of germ theory and sanitation he’d have saved a lot of lives, stopped a lot of suffering, and seriously impressed later generations when they discovered that yes, the world really is full of tiny, disease causing creatures that can be killed by boiling. Instead, he talked like a guy with the knowledge available 2000 years ago and no more. This youtube video [sums it up](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE&feature=PlayList&p=D8315BA736D3A006&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1) quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/77 "2010-02-24T01:38:54Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > **Frank apisa** > We seem to get OPs like yours that either show a total aversion to biblical cites, or the opposite----boodles of them. > > Yet, they rarely offer a thoughtful commentary. It feels like they’re throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks. > > The basis of my objection to your OP is in post #54, and your texts will be filtered by it. > > And I appreciate that you posted some texts in post #59. Why don’t we slow down and evaluate them in that context? Well…you know how it is with us people who are 5 miles wide and only an inch deep! Start with number one of the citations…and tell me what you object to its being offered as indicating that Paul saw nothing wrong with slavery. And we will slow down, because I am watching the Olympics with my wife and just coming in here to post occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/78 "2010-02-24T01:39:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The only way I can think of Jesus being excused is if he did condemn slavery, but those words got edited out by the Gospel writers. They figure they could get the slaves by offering pie in the sky after they die, and they wouldn’t get the rich slave owners if they actually condemned slavery, so marketingwise it didn’t fly. > > But it is more likely he didn’t care since everyone was going to go to heaven soon anyway. I don’t know quite to make of this post, but I think you have a point. (kind of…) If Jesus had a global message, whose horizon was well past the immediacy of day to day life (including those experiencing life as slaves…) then “going to heaven” was the permanent remedy. In other words, he knew full well that society needed fireman. But he was sent to teach fire prevention. And he couldn’t/wouldn’t let a fire (including many of them!) distract him from that message. (and, in fact, the prevalence of social injustices made his need to stay focused on his real assignment that much more important) ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/79 "2010-02-24T01:40:19Z")
Make that “we people” if “us” is incorrect. Don’t have time to reason it out. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/80 "2010-02-24T02:03:26Z")
> [@](#): > > He was willing to suggest loving enemies. It can easily be argued that “loving enemies” and “turning the other cheek” in place of “an eye for an eye” … That, by itself was a very new idea. The “policy” up to then had been more retrubutional - especially in the Roman Empire. After all, Rome could be ruthless. Crush your enemies. See them driven before you …" These were the people who, not content with conquering Carthage, had leveled the entire city, salted the earth, and exterminated every last one of them. This was a time when mercy was still regarded as weakness and foolhardiness. Enemies were meant to be destroyed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172.md?page=5)