# Why do you suppose Jesus never condemned slavery? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 23, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172 "2010-02-23T21:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/81 "2010-02-24T03:13:10Z")
> [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > You might ask St. Paul that…because he certainly didn’t get that message. I thought the thread was about Jesus? > [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > And isn’t it possible to love your neighbor…and not give a rat’s ass about whether or not your “neighbor” has slaves? Anything is possible but when you read the parables they don’t contain any hidden meaning. Nothing has to be translated verbatim to understand. > [@Frank\_apisa](#): > > Why are you so certain that the question is obviated by the fact that Jesus said to love your neighbor? Why are you posting the question in the first place? Are you having a crisis of faith or in need of a personal revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Mapache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58956e/32.png) [@Mapache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mapache)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/82 "2010-02-24T03:42:52Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If He commented on slavery, his comments were not recorded. The physical words in the Bible were written by human beings, and none of the four Gospels were written in Jesus’ lifetime and not likely by anyone that had firsthand knowledge. It hardly seems likely that they covered everything He said. So we do not know if He commented on slavery as an institution. > > The Old Testament has specific instructions on how to treat slaves, and in the context of the ancient world this was good treatment. Only if the slaves were fellow Hebrews. Anyone else could be raped, beaten to death (as long as they lingered in agony for 24 hours- Exodus 21:21) or sold as prostitutes. And notice that the supposed “kind treatment” of “wives” taken as booty only exists if the master wants them as “wives”; if he wants the woman as a concubine or slave, all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/83 "2010-02-24T04:14:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I thought the thread was about Jesus? It is, but several posters have claimed Jesus didn’t need to condemn slavery outright because it was obvious that what he _did_ say made it clear to all that slavery was bad. Apparently, however, this “obvious” message didn’t seem all _that_ obvious to any of his followers because, although they pontificated and expanded greatly on what they heard him say, touching on many subjects both major and minor, they didn’t go anywhere near a condemnation of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/84 "2010-02-24T04:26:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The only way I can think of Jesus being excused is if he did condemn slavery, but those words got edited out by the Gospel writers. They figure they could get the slaves by offering pie in the sky after they die, and they wouldn’t get the rich slave owners if they actually condemned slavery, so marketingwise it didn’t fly. I’m not sure I follow. Imagine a Bible where Jesus _ **does** _ address rich slaveowners: “First off, you shouldn’t be rich in general or own slaves in particular; you should give all your possessions away. But let’s shelve the bit about camels and needles for a moment to consider a hypothetical question: what should you do if your slave decides to smack you upside the head? Why, you should let him do it again, of course. And if he decides to take your cloak? Well, (a) don’t stop him, and (b) if anything, give him a nice tunic to go with it. What’s that? Ah, good question. No, I don’t much care what they were doing; unless _ **you’re** _ without sin, _ **you** _ can’t go around throwing rocks at people. If you forgive men _ **their** _ trespasses, then your heavenly Father will also forgive _ **you;** _ if you don’t, He won’t. So resist not evil, and judge not lest – hang on a minute, I’ll write this down.” What changes, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/85 "2010-02-24T04:28:56Z")
Maybe Jesus made mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/86 "2010-02-24T04:32:24Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Maybe Jesus made mistakes. So why not send Jesus 2.0 a generation or two later to correct the mistakes? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/87 "2010-02-24T05:13:00Z")
The general answer I’ve been told is that slavery wasn’t that bad a thing back then. Being a slave was much closer to being an indentured servant, or even a live-in employee. There were harsh masters, sure, but being one of those was forbidden. As for a Christian master being told to free his slaves: think about it. What good is a freed slave? What in that society could they do? They’d have no education, no skills that aren’t already being taken by a slave. It’s not like America where there were places where slaves were uncommon, and a former slave could use his abilities as a freedman. It would be far better to keep them as a slave, but treat them like a brother, like Paul commands Philemon. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/88 "2010-02-24T05:49:49Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t know quite to make of this post, but I think you have a point. > > (kind of…) The first point is that much of Christianity can be easily understood as really useful marketing. I’m not saying that Paul was a deliberate master marketer, holding meetings and cackling evilly, but either by choice or intuition it came out that way. Those pagan religions? Believe or not, they don’t care. Our religion? Don’t believe, and suffer in hell eternally. How do you want to bet? And then of course, as good salesmen do, remove all deal breakers. Circumcision. The kosher laws. These were in force for a long time, and Jesus didn’t even remove them, but _poof_ they were gone in seconds to sign up the chumps. I had the advantage of growing up without drinking the kool-aid, even when I believed in God. > [@](#): > > If Jesus had a global message, whose horizon was well past the immediacy of day to day life (including those experiencing life as slaves…) then “going to heaven” was the permanent remedy. > > In other words, he knew full well that society needed fireman. > > But he was sent to teach fire prevention. > > And he couldn’t/wouldn’t let a fire (including many of them!) distract him from that message. > > (and, in fact, the prevalence of social injustices made his need to stay focused on his real assignment that much more important) Well, that’s jolly dandy. Your house is burning? Tough, I’m teaching fire prevention over here. Not to mention that the fire engine is nearly 2,000 years late. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/89 "2010-02-24T05:57:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not sure I follow. Imagine a Bible where Jesus _ **does** _ address rich slaveowners: > > “First off, you shouldn’t be rich in general or own slaves in particular; you should give all your possessions away. But let’s shelve the bit about camels and needles for a moment to consider a hypothetical question: what should you do if your slave decides to smack you upside the head? Why, you should let him do it again, of course. And if he decides to take your cloak? Well, (a) don’t stop him, and (b) if anything, give him a nice tunic to go with it. What’s that? Ah, good question. No, I don’t much care what they were doing; unless _ **you’re** _ without sin, _ **you** _ can’t go around throwing rocks at people. If you forgive men _ **their** _ trespasses, then your heavenly Father will also forgive _ **you;** _ if you don’t, He won’t. So resist not evil, and judge not lest – hang on a minute, I’ll write this down.” > > What changes, exactly? We’re not talking about whether anyone would have listened to him - we sure know that didn’t happen. Be mean to the poor, take revenge. be rich, and it is all okay so long as you pray for forgiveness. So, if Jesus had just said “free your slaves” very likely people would find something in the Bible permitting it, but just maybe slavery would have been easier to abolish. Anyhow, his audience would read in “free men” for those who weren’t supposed to be hit back, not slaves. That’s crazy talk. Remember Spartacus! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/90 "2010-02-24T05:58:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So why not send Jesus 2.0 a generation or two later to correct the mistakes? He’s still in beta. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/91 "2010-02-24T06:06:08Z")
> [@Sapo](#): > > Oh well, it is good to know that slavery was abolished not because it was fucked up wrong but because it was just not needed any more. Also good to know that the God of Love would agree to that angle on it. Revelations 34:12-14 “And as the demons of steam are entrapped in metal cylinders to do the bidding of mule and men, the slaves will be set free”. Some translations skip over that part. Here is a quote from page 88 of my version of Howard Zinn’s _A People’s History of the United States_: > [@](#): > > ``` > In the northern states, the combination of blacks in the military, the lack of powerful economic need for slaves, and the rhetoric of Revolution led to the end of slavery- but very slowly. As late as 1810, thirty thousand blacks, one-fourth of the black population of the North, remained slaves. In 1840 there were still a thousand slaves in the North. In the upper South, there were more free Negroes than before, leading to more control legislation. In the lower South, slavery explanded with the growth of rice and cotton plantations. > > ``` Point being there are several reasons mentioned to explain why slavery ended. ‘Just not needed anymore’ = ‘the lack of powerful economic need for slaves’. The Bible isn’t mentioned (but then again Howard Zinn isn’t the only historian). If this is how slavery ended in the North, and then you consider that at a later date the North was wearing the pants, it seems to make good sense. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/92 "2010-02-24T06:14:29Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Maybe Jesus made mistakes. Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/93 "2010-02-24T06:16:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s still in beta. Nah, I think the product got canceled and all the saints got laid off. The damn website hasn’t been updated in 1800 years. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/94 "2010-02-24T08:42:09Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The general answer I’ve been told is that slavery wasn’t that bad a thing back then. Being a slave was much closer to being an indentured servant, or even a live-in employee. There were harsh masters, sure, but being one of those was forbidden. Yeah, but why not preach equality and personal freedom? God wants a class society? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/95 "2010-02-24T10:56:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I thought the thread was about Jesus? It is…but someone brought up the fact that some of the things Jesus said were meant to convey the idea that slavery was wrong…to be condemned. And they said the message was very clear. I was saying that if the message didn’t work for Paul, it wasn’t much of a message or was not very clear. > [@](#): > > Anything is possible but when you read the parables they don’t contain any hidden meaning. Nothing has to be translated verbatim to understand. Well, since Christian scholars from the very beginning have been suggesting that the parables do have to be considered carefully because they do contain hidden meanings…I would prefer to stick with them rather than you. > [@](#): > > Why are you posting the question in the first place? Are you having a crisis of faith or in need of a personal revelation. No crisis. I ask questions because I want to hear answers…and when I ask for suppositions, I want to hear suppositions. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/96 "2010-02-24T10:57:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is, but several posters have claimed Jesus didn’t need to condemn slavery outright because it was obvious that what he _did_ say made it clear to all that slavery was bad. Apparently, however, this “obvious” message didn’t seem all _that_ obvious to any of his followers because, although they pontificated and expanded greatly on what they heard him say, touching on many subjects both major and minor, they didn’t go anywhere near a condemnation of slavery. Thanks, Czarcasm. That is exactly the point. Paul is in this because the discussion took us there. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_apisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/47e85d/32.png) [@Frank\_apisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_apisa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/97 "2010-02-24T11:10:24Z")
Thank you to everyone who has participated so far. Nearly as I can see…the reason Jesus did not condemn slavery is because he did not think there was anything wrong with slavery. The god he worshipped assured him that there was nothing wrong with it…that it was moral and ethical to own and trade in slaves. Same goes for Paul. Same goes for all the early Christians. The god Paul worshipped…the god of Abraham…the god of the Bible…said there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying, selling, and owning slaves. It is, in the eyes of that god, an allowable thing. There is no reason to assume they thought it to be wrong…and that they couched their condemnation in parables. The question that arises (and which arises at the end of each of my threads is): Why do the theists here choose to worship this particular god as the GOD they suppose exists? I am an agnostic. I am not suggesting there is anything illogical about guessing or believing or estimating that a GOD exists. I am not suggesting that assuming or believing there are no gods is more logical or more likely than assuming there is a GOD. I am not suggesting that the evidence favors “no gods”…nor am I suggesting that the logical position should be “in the absence of evidence, one should simply assume no gods.” But I am asking: If you want to “believe” there is a GOD…and that the god is a loving, kind, just god… …why in the name of everything you consider Holy would you choose this god to worship? If the discussion goes on, fine! But that underlying question really should be answered. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/98 "2010-02-24T12:03:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is, but several posters have claimed Jesus didn’t need to condemn slavery outright because it was obvious that what he _did_ say made it clear to all that slavery was bad. Apparently, however, this “obvious” message didn’t seem all _that_ obvious to any of his followers because, although they pontificated and expanded greatly on what they heard him say, touching on many subjects both major and minor, they didn’t go anywhere near a condemnation of slavery. Share with us how they “expanded” on Jesus’s message, please, on “many subjects both major and minor.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/99 "2010-02-24T12:18:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We’re not talking about whether anyone would have listened to him - we sure know that didn’t happen. Be mean to the poor, take revenge. be rich, and it is all okay so long as you pray for forgiveness. So, if Jesus had just said “free your slaves” very likely people would find something in the Bible permitting it, but just maybe slavery would have been easier to abolish. You say that “just maybe slavery would have been easier to abolish” if he’d said something else – but all the stuff you copy-and-pasted me putting in his mouth for a hypothetical address to slaveowners is what he _ **already** _ says in the Bible, and I thus don’t figure it’d be any use to further duplicate what he’d repeatedly spelled out. What else _ **could** _ he have said? Why do you figure additional words that make the exact same point would maybe make things easier? > [@](#): > > Anyhow, his audience would read in “free men” for those who weren’t supposed to be hit back, not slaves. That’s crazy talk. Not hitting back is crazy talk _ **period.** _ You can find oodles of Christians who hit back against free men. You can find oodles of Christians who hit _ **first** _ against free men. You can find oodles of rich Christians who don’t (a) give all their worldly possessions to charity, or even (b) come close. You can even find Christians who honestly believe it’s their solemn duty to kill that there sinner by picking up these here stones. Why do you figure that hearing one more disregardable injunction would get the job done given that they heard and disregarded him just fine when he addressed the subject before? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172/100 "2010-02-24T14:13:08Z")
It seems to me that people today simply view the concept of slavery in terms of the southern US experience. The only justification for slavery of that time was racist, and at no time required the consent of the slave. During the Jesus era slaves were simply either the spoils of war or their servitude was contracted. Back in the day, people who wished to ensure security could sell their lives to a wealthy landowner who in turn would house, clothe and feed them in perpetuity. That’s how it was supposed to work. The more independant soul would hire himself out for wages, but only when the work was available. You want security? You have no land ? You have no wealthy family. Become a slave. It is better than being a beggar. Those of us who have been afraid to quit our jobs and subject to mortgages and monthly bills may have some idea as to the quality of the plight of a first century slave. So, if you feel that Jesus should have spoke out against slavery, you might also propose how you would have provided for the ex slaves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-suppose-jesus-never-condemned-slavery/530172.md?page=6)