# Why do you think the U.S. auto industry is falling apart? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 23, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252 "2006-01-23T15:50:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/141 "2006-01-26T17:11:43Z")
> [@habs](#): > > I’m sure that you have probably already looked into it, but have you considered the [Ford Freestyle](http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/freestyle/)? I know it’s not exactly a small vehicle (it offers seating for 7), and the mileage on the AWD is not great (19/24), but it seems to be a very versatile car with **excellent** safety ratings (I believe it was co-designed with Volvo). For these reasons, I myself am considering purchasing a Freestyle later this year… I considered it, but like the Five Hundred, it was the first model year and I didn’t feel like being a guinea pig. It was also expensive and too SUV-like. I might have to get another car in the near future and I’d probably get a Five Hundred before a Freestyle. I also looked at the Escape, but it’s capacity wasn’t any greater than the Subaru and it was taller and heavier. I just wanted something like my old Escort but with AWD. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/142 "2006-01-26T18:12:48Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > It wouldn’t surprise me if GM and Ford build several cars that exactly match your requirements but only sell them in Europe, which seems a tad foolish given that all their competitors sell ‘global’ cars in the US as well as US-specific models. ISTR seeing familiar names on some cars in Europe that looked very different from anything that American car manufacturers sell here. I wish they’d sell those cars here in the States. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/143 "2006-01-26T18:28:17Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > ISTR seeing familiar names on some cars in Europe that looked very different from anything that American car manufacturers sell here. I wish they’d sell those cars here in the States. Wow. I just compared [Ford UK](http://www.ford.co.uk:80/opera/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/-) and [Ford US](http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/) - I hadn’t realised just how different the product lineups were. Although the Ka might be just a bit weeny for US roads. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/144 "2006-01-26T19:50:12Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I’m a gay man and you know what? Based on that alone I’d buy a VW or a BMW because both of those car companies have acknowledged my existence. Most American car commercials lead me to believe they’re being driven by the kind of people who would take me out in the woods, beat the crap out of me and leave me for dead. And as we all know, all debates, all controversies every issue are all ultimately about homophobia and the oppression of gays … I mean, we all know that people who drive big American cars are all just itching to beat gays to death. :rolleyes: Somehow I don’t think that Detroit’s failure to focus on gays is in any way relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/145 "2006-01-26T20:22:18Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Hear, hear, **Anne Neville**. I want the same as you do, but I have kids to boot. And I don’t think my requirements will change too much when I do have kids. I think current plans are to have two kids, and I know very well that two kids can fit very well in the back seat of a normal (non-minivan, non-SUV) car- my parents always had regular cars, and my sister and I were just fine. We fought over “you’re on my side” sometimes, but show me siblings who have never done that, and I’ll show you parents who are lying or in denial. If there were as many :rolleyes: as there are electrons in the universe, there still wouldn’t be enough to express my opinion of people who buy SUV’s to “keep their kids safer”- figuring that if they’re in an accident, they want the people in the other vehicle to be injured or killed instead of them (Whatever happened to hoping that _nobody_ would be injured or killed?). ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/146 "2006-01-26T20:50:06Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > And I don’t think my requirements will change too much when I do have kids. I think current plans are to have two kids, and I know very well that two kids can fit very well in the back seat of a normal (non-minivan, non-SUV) car- my parents always had regular cars, and my sister and I were just fine. We fought over “you’re on my side” sometimes, but show me siblings who have never done that, and I’ll show you parents who are lying or in denial. Our PT cruiser worked really well for us as a single couple, our other car was a four door saturn. The minute we had twins, those two cars really weren’t the best. The Cruiser’s plusses require that the back seats are available to flip, fold or be removed. Nail them down with car seats and the car gets quite a bit less convenient. The Saturn got replaced by an Avalanche (Yet another SDMB posterchild for whipping). It’s been GREAT. Say what you will about SUV’s, they’re handy. People _like_ handy. It had nothing to do with ‘safety \ for the \\* Children!\*’ It’s big enough the kids can’t kick the seats, it’s great for bringing home beds (and groceries, and that time we rented the travel trailer, and the time we got 28 inches of snow) It’s had a recall or two, the door panel had to be replaced, and the 4x4 transfer case control unit had to be replaced under warrantee…but it’s been a great vehicle. We luuurve it. It works well for our needs (and desires…let be real here, you buy the vehicle you WANT, not the one you NEED) ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/147 "2006-01-26T20:53:29Z")
Off the top of my head there are three domestic cars which fit your needa **Anne**. The [Dodge Neon](http://www.dodge.com/neon/), the [Chevy Aveo](http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/), and the [Ford Focus](http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/focus/). I’m sure you will hate all of them, but don’t say they don’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/148 "2006-01-26T20:56:46Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And as we all know, all debates, all controversies every issue are all ultimately about homophobia and the oppression of gays … I mean, we all know that people who drive big American cars are all just itching to beat gays to death. :rolleyes: Somehow I don’t think that Detroit’s failure to focus on gays is in any way relevant to this discussion. Gays don’t have money to spend on cars? Of course it’s relevent. Just as relevent as marketing towards women. Straight men get hot fast sports cars marketed directly at them. You think minivans aren’t marketed towards families? Give me a break. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/149 "2006-01-26T20:59:32Z")
> [@welby](#): > > I’d be happy to post my notes on any of the cars I drove. I still have them. I would actually be interested in seeing your notes. Let’s face it; very few people test drive both domestics and foreign cars, so it should make for interesting comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/150 "2006-01-26T21:04:21Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Planned Obsolescence: EVERY engineered product is designed with a lifespan in mind. This is nothing peculiar to the American auto industry, or for that matter the auto industry at all. > > When I pick a switch out of a catalog, I’ll find one that has a mean time between failures that matches the product it’s going in to. ANYTHING can be made to last longer, if you’re willing to spend more money, add weight, or have other tradeoffs. We could increase the lifespan of every computer by simply putting more powerful cooling systems in them. But this would make them heavier, more expensive, and perhaps noisier. Somewhere during the design of your computer, an engineer had to look at the cooling issue and decide how much was ‘enough’. > > So ‘planned obsolescence’ is not a negative term, and nothing that should be criticised, UNLESS the engineers made poor choices and picked components that fail earlier than they should. That’s not an issue of planned obsolescence, it’s just bad engineering. There is a difference between designing so that all components have a natural life, and designing to reduce the expected life of a part. I agree that this is not always bad, but it is if the market wants a longer life, which is what the auto market wanted. It can go the other way. Bell System phones (and just about everything) were designed for long (20 year) life. I went to a seminar after divestiture about how to design quality out of components - when people were buying phones, it no longer made sense to design for the rental market. For your example - fans fail before the components they are supposed to protect, so you have to be a little bit careful. Over engineering the fan, and reducing its life, will not add to the life of the system. > [@](#): > > One of the areas where domestic automakers screwed up was in _perceived_ quality, as opposed to actual quality. For cost reasons, they built their tooling in such a way as to haave bigger panel gaps, and they chose switches and interior materials that, while functional, have a ‘cheap’ feel to them. This hurt the perception of quality for the vehicle, even if its actual reliability was as good as the competition. This may be a cultural thing also. In the '80s/'90s I heard that when Japanese customers checked out a printed circuit board, they turned it over and made sure that all the through hole wires were trimmed to the exact same length. This was very important to them - they saw it as an indicator of attention to detail. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/151 "2006-01-26T21:12:11Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Gays don’t have money to spend on cars? Of course it’s relevent. Just as relevent as marketing towards women. Straight men get hot fast sports cars marketed directly at them. You think minivans aren’t marketed towards families? Since this was brought up, and I already had heard of the boycott, I decided to look into it because I didn’t know what became of it. You should be pleased. At first Ford said they stop support gay groups and their activities like sponsoring gay pride parades, and advertising in gay magazines. But apparently they’ve reneged and told the AFA to shove it. > [@](#): > > In December, Ford reaffirmed the company’s four-year-old advertising efforts in gay publications as well as sponsorship of gay and lesbian organizations and events after it was perceived to have capitulated to AFA demands. Ford said it will advertise all eight of its brands in gay media for the first time. [http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/index.html](http://www.commercialcloset.org/cgi-bin/iowa/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/152 "2006-01-27T03:36:58Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > Off the top of my head there are three domestic cars which fit your needa **Anne**. The [Dodge Neon](http://www.dodge.com/neon/), the [Chevy Aveo](http://www.chevrolet.com/aveo/), and the [Ford Focus](http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/focus/). I’m sure you will hate all of them, but don’t say they don’t exist. I think about the Neon a lot (no, really I do, I worked in Marketing in the Detroit area for years). Around the time I graduated college (97) it was a very popular starter/low-end car. It was cute, cheap, good mileage, people liked it. Then after a few years Dodge just let the brand languish and ignored it completely. I hardly see any on the road anymore. WTF!? I am not personally a fan of the car (because it has poor visibility to short drivers) BUT clearly lots of people were at one time. Honda will never, ever stop flogging the Civic, but It seems like when Dodge builds some brand equity on a small car they have no idea what to do with it after the initial push. With the right branding Neon could be alot more popular than it is. Dodge, _j’accuse_! ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/153 "2006-01-27T15:31:39Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > With the right branding Neon could be alot more popular than it is. They’re replacing the NEON for 06 or 07, I believe. From what I have seen of spy shots and such, you probably won’t be happy with the result, but who knows: Despite the bad rap that hatches get in the US, I love 'em and I suspect I am not alone. > **[Auto News: Breaking Car News and First Drive Reports](https://www.thecarconnection.com/news)** > > In-depth coverage of the automotive industry, vehicle recalls, concept car releases, spy shots, auto show news, celebrity car crashes, first drive reports and more ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/154 "2006-01-27T16:32:13Z")
I’m not anti-hatchback and the coupe version looks kind of cute. I don’t have any particular arguement with the redesign. But it all goes to show Detroit doesn’t understand branding. On the one had they take a perfectly reasonable brand, like Neon and just chuck the baby with the bathwater when the image gets a bit stale. I really don’t get why they don’t continue to use the “Neon” name for a small, sporty, low-end starter car. Does it have some loathesome brand image that I’m not aware of? Back to Civic. Honda will call practically anything a Civic – wasn’t the Del Sol badged as a Civic? And why? Because people like “Civic” – it carries a positive reputation with it that people dig on. They could probably split the Civic line into two to three brands if they wanted to, with different names for stripped down basic model, median average build and luxury option packages. But they don’t, because people get warm fuzzies from the “Civic” name, and that’s what we call branding, folks. If they don’t support the brand, the ins and outs of comparative mechanical merit don’t mean much. Let’s say you bought a Neon right out of school in 1997 and really loved it. Now, its 10 years later and you’d like to buy another one, well, too bad, so sad, we discontinued it. How can you build loyalty when a brand only stays on the market less than 2 financing cycles (ie 5 year loan periods)!? Meanwhile 70s-era behemoth brands that were the subject of open ridicule the last anyone heard of them (like the Malibu and Impala) get a second chance!? What’s the world coming to!? It makes me meshugge thinking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/155 "2006-01-27T18:32:14Z")
If you’re looking for a neon-ish car, check out the Chevy Cobalt. It’s supposed to be a very good car. ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/156 "2006-01-27T19:09:55Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > If you’re looking for a neon-ish car, check out the Chevy Cobalt. It’s supposed to be a very good car. From my experience with the Cobalt, it has many of the same characteristics of recently released American cars: Excellent engine and powertrain, decent handling, and a sub-par interior. If I were in the market for a small, economical car, I’m not sure the Cobalt would make my top 5 list. And I LIKE American cars (six Cadillacs in a row). However, it is definitely a step up from the Crapalier. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/157 "2006-01-27T19:53:37Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > If you’re looking for a neon-ish car, check out the Chevy Cobalt. It’s supposed to be a very good car. I’m not looking for a Neonish car, are we even in the same discussion, **Sam**? The Case of the Dodge Neon is the perfect example of how American car companies don’t know how to a) sell b) build brand support for c) consider Opal’s needs in a perfectly adequate small car. I’m not sure what the issue is, or why they so consisently drop the ball. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/158 "2006-01-27T22:48:20Z")
[BMW’s available with night vision starting in March.](http://gadgets.autoblog.com/2006/01/25/bmw-night-vision-to-become-available-in-march/) How come American car manufacturers never seem to have the latest, coolest stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Necros](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/necros/32/11086_2.png) [@Necros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Necros)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/159 "2006-01-27T23:32:12Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > [BMW’s available with night vision starting in March.](http://gadgets.autoblog.com/2006/01/25/bmw-night-vision-to-become-available-in-march/) > > How come American car manufacturers never seem to have the latest, coolest stuff? I really do hope you’re making some joke here. You are, right? [http://www.autotrader.com/research/shared/article.jsp?article\_id=2293&refpage=safetyinfo&restype=used](http://www.autotrader.com/research/shared/article.jsp?article_id=2293&refpage=safetyinfo&restype=used) > [@](#): > > Originally developed to enable the armed forces to fight at night, Night Vision will make the transition from military to consumer hardware next year. It will debut in the **fall of 1999** as an option on the next-generation Cadillac Deville, the nation’s best-selling luxury sedan. (bolding mine) The general consensus with these systems is: “Oo! Neat! I can see in the dark! Coooool!” “Wait. The screen isn’t in the normal driver field of vision. I have to look down at this screen. Hey. This thing has no depth-perception. Wow. I spent how much for this useless option?” ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252/160 "2006-01-28T00:13:46Z")
> [@Necros](#): > > I really do hope you’re making some joke here. You are, right? > [Autotrader - page unavailable](http://www.autotrader.com/research/shared/article.jsp?article_id=2293&refpage=safetyinfo&restype=used) > > (bolding mine) > > The general consensus with these systems is: “Oo! Neat! I can see in the dark! Coooool!” > “Wait. The screen isn’t in the normal driver field of vision. I have to look down at this screen. Hey. This thing has no depth-perception. Wow. I spent how much for this useless option?” Yes, it was kind of a joke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-do-you-think-the-u-s-auto-industry-is-falling-apart/341252.md?page=9)