# Why does Africa suffer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431 "2008-06-27T13:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/1 "2008-06-27T13:16:00Z")
Why is it that most African countries below the Sahara are in such a terrible state? By almost every yardstick most of them are suffering. In terms of politics, economics and human rights, they are below the standards that we would find acceptable. Is it to do with the climate? Is it to do with the consequences of colonial rule? Is it because of tribal cultures? I’ve never understood. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/2 "2008-06-27T13:31:04Z")
I would say it is a combination of B and C. It is a consequence of initial tribal rule _and_ of colonial rule. However, my understanding is limited as I do not know the state of affairs in Africa Prior to colonial rule. Except for Egypt…I don’t know it’s history prior to the formation of countries. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/3 "2008-06-27T13:37:11Z")
It is a consequence of colonial rule only insomuch as colonial rule produced horrible dictators that are the ones who are responsible for the devastation you see in much of sub-Saharan Africa today. Look at Zimbabwe. It is in a horrible situation today. It certainly isn’t because the British colonized the place. The blame lies squarely on the shoulders of Robert Mugabe and his anti-freedom activities. Any country in sub-Saharan Africa suffering from a similar fate has a current or former leader who resembles Mugabe. Look at those thugs if you are looking to assign blame. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/4 "2008-06-27T13:41:05Z")
Personally, I blame Whitey… …but seriously… It’s to do with colonialism, tribalism, religion, sexism, and geography. Let’s not underestimate that latter bit, either - N-S axis, big deserts and jungles, some pretty shitty natural pests like Malaria and Tsetse Fly, mostly worn-out soils because of being old stable cratons (cf Australia), astride the equator & tropics:all that doesn’t help. I think colonialism, while still having an effect today, was just the cherry on top. Africa and its displaced twin South America (Which is not _that_ much removed from the banana republis stereotypes of the 70s) were always destined to be the poor relations of the continent family. As for tribalism and general ignorance - fuck they’re still going on honest-to-god witchhunts in Kenya. What the fuck can you do for people like that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/5 "2008-06-27T13:46:31Z")
Accident of history is my WAG. Why were there Dark Ages in Europe? Why does the United States seem like it’s heading for a long period of ignorance and backwardness? In Africa’s case? Never underestimate the deleterious effects of colonialism and fruitless internecine tribal warfare. ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/6 "2008-06-27T13:47:31Z")
Don’t forget almost no navigable rivers. Seems quaint but both Europe and the Eastern US have an excellent network of rivers. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/7 "2008-06-27T14:25:37Z")
I don’t think there are any easy or straightforward answers. Nonetheless, I do think colonialism is given too much weight. If colonialism were an overwhelming factor, or a factor on its own, South Africa, Namibia and Botswana would be in tatters. Admittedly Botswana was never a colony, but it was a British protectorate. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/8 "2008-06-27T15:00:34Z")
Far too many brutal, kleptocratic leaders. Little experience in sustained democratic practice. Religious, tribal and ethnic tensions. Illogically-drawn national boundaries. Chronic poverty. A terrible healthcare system. Widespread illiteracy. Environmental degradation. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/9 "2008-06-27T15:22:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Nonetheless, I do think colonialism is given too much weight. If colonialism were an overwhelming factor, or a factor on its own, South Africa, Namibia and Botswana would be in tatters. I’d make the comparison between Africa and South America. If less than a hundred years of colonialism ruined Africa, why didn’t over three hundred years of colonialism destroy South America? ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/10 "2008-06-27T15:29:50Z")
[QUOTE=MikeG] Don’t forget almost no navigable rivers. Seems quaint but both Europe and the Eastern US have an excellent network of rivers. [/QUOTE] Good point. SE Asia, too. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/11 "2008-06-27T15:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’d make the comparison between Africa and South America. If less than a hundred years of colonialism ruined Africa, why didn’t over three hundred years of colonialism destroy South America? [/QUOTE] Because new diseases decimated the population first. The Americas were nearly a blank slate once the natives stopped dying from smallpox and measles. I’d wager that of most of Africa had died upon the arrival of Europeans in the 1500s, you’d see a much more S.America-like continent. ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/12 "2008-06-27T15:36:01Z")
Corrupt leadership in who’s interest it is to keep their population uneducated, poor and at odds with others. ---
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/13 "2008-06-27T15:37:10Z")
[QUOTE=Burton] Corrupt leadership in who’s interest it is to keep their population uneducated, poor and at odds with others. [/QUOTE] Why is it in their interests? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/14 "2008-06-27T15:38:43Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’d make the comparison between Africa and South America. If less than a hundred years of colonialism ruined Africa, why didn’t over three hundred years of colonialism destroy South America? [/QUOTE] The genocide of the native populations in south america looks a lot like ‘destroy’ to me. Colonialism just took different forms and was done by different people at different times in different circumstances. It’s a catch-all, not a technical term. And in Africa the europeans ‘left’, leaving behind arbitrary borders that paid no attention to tribal boundaries thus leaving a legacy of tribal rivalry that dominates politics everywhere from Zimbabwe to Nigeria. In South America we never left - we just supplanted the native survivors and founded new, Pope ordained nations. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/15 "2008-06-27T15:45:46Z")
> [@](#): > > The genocide of the native populations in south america looks a lot like ‘destroy’ to me. > > Colonialism just took different forms and was done by different people at different times in different circumstances. It’s a catch-all, not a technical term. That raises the question of why Africa is suffering in 2008 and South America isn’t. If it’s a matter than European descended people took over South America and not Africa. Then the question becomes why isn’t India or South East Asia screwed up like Africa? Their native populations weren’t replaced by Europeans when they were colonies. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/16 "2008-06-27T15:55:04Z")
I would say it is because Sub-Saharan Africa never abandoned tribalism. To be an effective nation-state, you have to put aside differneces. instead, Africa has been riven by civil wars and tribal conflicts. It seems to have no end. take Nigeria-oil rich, but ethnically divided (north=muslim, south=christian). Billions of $ coming in from oil, with NO discernable improvement. Instead, the educated people leave for the US or Europe. Staggering levels of corruption, and a stifling beaurocracy. Not a good foundation for a nation. It is a bad state and seems to be getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/17 "2008-06-27T15:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] That raises the question of why Africa is suffering in 2008 and South America isn’t. If it’s a matter than European descended people took over South America and not Africa. Then the question becomes why isn’t India or South East Asia screwed up like Africa? Their native populations weren’t replaced by Europeans when they were colonies. [/QUOTE] India was a rich and powerful civilisation in its own right and so the British interests lay in co-opting the rulers. The British did not colonise India, they exploited it as a colony with a large managerial and military presence. And the S American question isn’t raised. It’s the difference between a family moving into a house they’ve evicted the owners from (South America) and moving in and trashing a house and then moving out while obliging two or more hostile gangs to live under the same vacated roof (Africa). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/18 "2008-06-27T16:00:22Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’d make the comparison between Africa and South America. If less than a hundred years of colonialism ruined Africa, why didn’t over three hundred years of colonialism destroy South America? [/QUOTE] “Less than a hundred years”? Africa has been colonised by Europe and the Middle East since before they knew South America existed. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/19 "2008-06-27T16:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] “Less than a hundred years”? Africa has been colonised by Europe and the Middle East since before they knew South America existed. [/QUOTE] Certain parts, yes, but a lot of the colonization didn’t really begin, in full, until the late nineteenth century. And it lasted less than a hundred years in many areas. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431/20 "2008-06-27T16:25:47Z")
[QUOTE=Renob] Certain parts, yes, but a lot of the colonization didn’t really begin, in full, until the late nineteenth century. And it lasted less than a hundred years in many areas. [/QUOTE] …and other bits had been colonies since the 1400s. Sure, there was the Scramble for Africa in the 1800s, but to discard everything before that is shortsighted. It had a huge influence on later African history, from the African Diaspora (starting in the 15th C) to the present day. Look at the legend of [this map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Negroland_and_Guinea_with_the_European_Settlements%2C_1736.jpg) from 1736. Yes, most of the interior didn’t get carved up until the Scramble, but there’s more to colonialism than just carving up administrative districts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-africa-suffer/454431.md?page=2)