Why does America money have value

People accepted gold in trade because they knew other people valued gold. And I was under the impression we were talking not only about gold, but money backed by gold, and I rather suspect that *all *people who traded in money backed by a gold standard did not do so because they knew other people who valued that gold, for what you call its intrinsic properties or indeed otherwise. Regardless, some people valued gold because it had value for other people. Same with money.

It is the same reason. In both cases, those people accepted gold because other people valued it. I’m rather uncertain why you feel “can be traded” is unacceptable as an “intrinsic” property, especially since your definition of intrinsic appears to be quite different from that most people use. Could you define intrinsic value for me, please?

Yes, and it was obvious why people valued gold. There’s a segment of the population that uses the stuff for many purposes.

Jesus Harold Christ scratches his head at why people value bits of green-and-white paper, though. All we seem to use it for is to pass on to other people?

Gold would never have got to the point of being accepted by everyone for trade if it didn’t start off being accepted only by those who valued its intrinsic properties.

This is a crucial point, worth repeating.

Gold would never have got to the point of being accepted by everyone for trade if it didn’t start off being accepted only by those who valued its intrinsic properties.

Commodity-less money, by its very definition, did not start off as a commodity that was accepted only by some, who used it for its intrinsic properties.

So how can you possibly say that money and gold have value for the same reason? Simply saying “because people accept them as having value” does not explain how they got their initial value. It perhaps explains their ongoing value, but does not explain how they first got value.

I think we’ve come far enough in this thread that thisneeds to be shared. The dollars and yen and such that you’re talking about is not money per se, it’s “currency”. My shirt can be money if I trade it. There is quite literally “money in my house” but I’m not talking about in my pocket. The fact that my house can be traded for more than I owe on it means it is money.

That still doesn’t explain why people accept dollars in lieu of something actually useful in itself. If you imagine a barter economy where one day the government announces that from tomorrow, all goods and services can be paid for by handing over these here pieces of paper (OK, the govt would have to publish a suggested price list too, to get things going), I suspect that not a lot of trade would take place the next day. Because why bother doing or making anything if someone can take it off you for a few of these new-fangled pieces of paper that the king is banging on about?

I think it is quite a magical thing how societies transition from money based on some kind of perceived value (I’m with the people saying that gold, for example, does have intrinsic value), to money based on trust alone, as people gradually stop worrying about what the money is supposed to be based on and start thinking of the tokens themselves as having value. I don’t think you can get to trust-based money without passing through the value-based phase.

Gold has “intrinsic value” only in the exact same way those little folding slips of green paper has value: because people are willing to give you stuff for them. Shininess has no bearing on the question, nor does rarity. Aluminum for most of human history has been much more rare than gold or silver, and can be just as shiny. No society in human history has had an aluminum-backed monetary system.

Gold only seems to have "intrinsic value " because of long historical habit. Its basis is exactly the same. Until you accept this, you won’t accept the value of the American dollar or the Euro or quatloos or any other currency. Gold’s intrinsic value is a myth that has no historical truth. All the things cited as examples of intrinsic value are social constructs. Gold jewelery is called alluring only because there’s societal agreement it is alluring. Gold is hoarded only because there’s a societal agreement that gold is worth hoarding. Every other use cited for gold as an example of intrinsic value is only historically recent, and doesn’t explain at all why it was valued by ancients. Joe Egyptian only wanted gold because so did Tom Egyptian and Dick Egyptian and Harry Egyptian all did, too.

Gold won’t nourish you, or form a roof over your head, or heat your home, or cure cholera, or do anything else to help you survive. The blue-sky clarity of its supposed intrinsic value is a societal and psychological construct. We value it because everyone else values it. We are taught to value it in the same way we are taught to value dollars. Things that truly have intrinsic value, e.g., mother’s milk, are things no-one has to be taught to value.

Let’s take money back to its true beginnings, and maybe this becomes easier to understand. It’s 2000BC in Mesopotamia, and I’m a farmer with a problem. Because of this new-fangled agriculture, I’ve grown way more wheat than my family & I can eat this year, even if I store it. Actually, I’ve got two problems. My wife has been bugging me for months to replace that goatskin bucket she uses for hauling water with a nice, modern pottery jug. So I find one Jesus Harold Christ, potter, and say to him: “Look, I got a lot of extra grain. How about you give me two jugs for a bushel of the stuff?”

This transaction creates monetary value. Before you and I talked, a bushel of wheat had intrinsic worth as a number of meals for me and my family. After you and I talked, a bushel of wheat had a market value of two pottery jugs.

Jesus Harold Christ, in turn then goes to Enkil the carter and says: “I will give you two water jugs if you haul this month’s output from my kilns to Assur.” Two water jugs are now worth a trip by cart to Assur. By extension, a bushel of wheat should also be worth a trip to Assur, right? They’re both worth two water jugs, right? What if I go to Enkil and he says that he wants three bushels to take my surplus wheat to Assur, because wheat is harder to haul? And what happens when Enkil gets to Assur and wants to get a beer in the local equivalent of a pub? Is he going to give them jugs and wheat?

So a barter system runs out of ways to easily exchange and set prices for goods and services. Some form of token is developed to allow the market to trade goods and services more effectively. If I’m a farmer with extra bushels of wheat in medieval England, those tokens are silver pennies. If I’m a farmer with extra bushels of corn in pre-Columbian New England, those tokens are beads drilled from quahog shells. If I’m a farmer with extra bushels of barley in contemporary US, those tokens are dollars. It’s all the same. The silver pennies of England, the quahog beads of New England, and the paper dollars of today all have value for the exact same reason: everyone else agrees they have value.

When did we take a vote on this? Where is the agreement that says:{X} has value? What kind of plebicite was held? The answer is that we vote every day, every time we decide to exchange some of these tokens for a good or service or every time we decide that good or service is not worth the amount of tokens the seller wants. The market is a continual and constant mechanism for voting on the value of a dollar.

I’m confused as to why only the intial reasons for people accepting gold count. All those people who valued money based on the gold standard without valuing gold for its “intrinsic properties” surely show that people can value something without it being based on “intrinsic properties”, no? Put another way, before people started valuing gold for its “intrinsic properties”, they did not value gold. Does that then mean that any reasons for valuing gold after that are null and void, because at one point they did not exist?

If your argument is simply why did money start having value in the first place, rather than why does it have value at all, then you would seem to be moving the goalposts at bit. I would say that it’s probably because it was, at one point, tied very closely to commodities for many societies.

What I don’t understand is why a Euro might be worth 1.35 dollars on Monday and 1.45 dollars on Sunday. What causes this? Is it only differences in supply? If no, why does demand change?

The point you’re missing is that the king is backed by an army. If I trade something for “meaningless pieces of paper and coin”, the army or cops will FORCE someone else to take it from me in trade. Money has value for the same reason that a judge’s verdict does. I mean, after all, he’s just speaking words, right?

Demand rises for goods and services made in Euro-land. You have to sell dollars to buy the Euros.

The exchange markets are just a confusion in this discussion, and are probably best left off to the side. Many things that happen in these markets happen for reasons that have nothing to do with supply and demand. These transactions are more like bets at a Vegas sports book than they are like normal market transactions.

Boy, this topic is getting to be right up there with the Presidential election, ain’t it?

Just to further add to everyone’s confusion:

From GQ:

The gold in Fort Knox–what is it for?

Followed by:

Has gold ever been worthless?

And over in Great Debates:

What would happen if massive amounts of gold became available?
I do think gold started out, thousands of years ago, as something with a so-called “intrinsic value”. Just as cattle or goats were valued as a food source, or marble was valued as a building material, or iron was valued as a material from which to make hard, durable tools, gold was valued as an ornamental item. It was just another trade good, specifically a luxury good–a shiny rock that people liked because it they thought it looked pretty, just like other shiny rocks (rubies or jade) or artificial shiny rocks (glass beads) or peacock feathers.

For a variety of reasons gold was ideally suited to become a central trade good in societies of a certain level of technological development:
[ul]
[li]It’s just rare enough; when the human race was getting started out on this whole “civilization” thing, lumps of gold could still be found lying about in the beds of certain rivers, but it wasn’t exactly carpeting the landscape. It was available enough; if your tribe happened to live along the banks of stream in which the pretty shiny heavy yellow rocks were found from time to time, some other tribe, assuming they had a sufficient surplus of foodstuffs and so on, would probably trade for it, just like those rich tribes would trade for other decorative but largely impractical stuff like peacock feathers or the teeth of elephants. It wasn’t like everyone could find the pretty yellow shiny rocks; but on the other hand (unlike aluminum), they were out there if you were willing to spend some time and effort to go find them, even if all you had was a Neolithic or Bronze Age level of technology.[/li][li]Once it enters your Neolithic or Bronze Age economy, it’s not going away–it doesn’t rust or rot, and the uses it’s put to tend not to consume it–even if they don’t rot, people eat meat or grain; and blocks of marble get used up building palaces or temples or bathhouses, making them no longer readily available for further use (although ancient civilizations were not above plundering the mighty works of those who had gone before them for building supplies). Jewelry just sits there, and can be pretty easily passed along or reshaped.[/li][li]It’s very hard to fake, on account of its unique appearance but mostly on account of its density. Tungsten has close to the same density, but nobody back then had the slightest clue of what tungsten was or how to get it, even if they were sitting on a mountain of tungsten ore. Its density also means it’s nicely compact. Cattle are a bit of a pain to haul around with you.[/li][li]Unlike rubies or peacock feathers, it’s divisible and fungible. One ruby may be finer than another (with a more vivid color or fewer imperfections). Rubies are “quantized”–if you chop a one carat ruby in half, even if you got two half-carat rubies (which you wouldn’t), two half-carat rubies aren’t necessarily worth as much as a single one carat ruby; and you can’t moosh two half-carat rubies together to make a single one carat ruby. Gold, on the other hand, can be manipulated with relatively low tech means to form ingots of desired size and purity. If you have 100 ounces of gold, you can make 100 one-ounce ingots, or 200 half-ounce ingots, as needed; and if you have too many half-ounce ingots, you can melt some of them down and make one-ounce or quarter-ounce ingots. There may be some losses in this, but not in the same way you would get if you tried to manipulate rubies this way.[/li][/ul]
So, for all those reasons, gold was suited–in a way bacon or rubies or peacock feathers weren’t–to being made up in standard-size lots of declared purity and quantity, which seems to have started about 2,600 years ago in Asia Minor (what is today Turkey) in the ancient kingdom of Lydia. When that happened, at some point people stopped valuing gold for any “intrinsic value”–which, compared with bacon or flint arrowheads had never been all that much anyway, as gold was basically a “conspicuous consumption” good; “Our tribe is so rich (has so many cattle) that we can trade away perfectly good cows in exchange for shiny rocks, peacock feathers, and the teeth of elephants with which to adorn ourselves.” For at least 2,600 years, gold has been valued not as a trade good, but because people in increasingly large areas of the world believe that Gold Is Money.

Arguing that a gold standard is superior to what we have now because “Gold is really worth something” (unlike pieces of paper with fancy engraving) does miss the point. The demand for gold because it looks pretty (or because it can be used in electronics or whatever) is relatively minor; people want gold because of the idea that Gold Is Money. So long as everyone thinks Gold Is Money, gold is money; if they stopped thinking that, it would be just another trade good, with a practical use more like that of peacock feathers than that of bacon or fishhooks.
Nowadays, U.S. dollars (or euros or Japanese yen or Swiss francs) are money. They are valued for the same reason people have valued gold for two or three thousand years–not because they look pretty, but because they are money. (And really, the pieces of specal paper with the fancy engraving are just as likely to have “real worth” or “intrinsic value” as lumps of shiny yellow metal. Paper money bills tend to be little works of art, and it’s quite possible that an “intrinsicly worthless” piece of paper–one issued by a government that doesn’t exist anymore–might still be worth some amount of bacon or fishhooks to a collector on the basis of rarity, historical interest, and attractiveness. Gold can be made more valuable by shaping it into statues; but a lump of bronze that has been sculpted by a great master may be worth more than a lump of gold that hasn’t, even though as metals gold costs more per ounce than bronze does.)

Gold does have the advantage of not being tied to any particular government. If the U.S. got nuked off the face of the planet tomorrow, then I guess all those greenbacks and symbolic representations of greenbacks (dollar-denominated bank accounts) would no longer be worth much (except, as mentioned, that at least some U.S. money would probably still be worth something in numismatic terms). On the other hand, the supply of U.S. dollars can be controlled by the smart people we’ve hired to run the Federal Reserve Banks, who are ultimately accountable to us; whereas the supply of gold is pretty much at the mercy of gold miners the world over; if someone discovers a mountain of gold in Alberta or mounts an expedition to mine Eros–boom! Instant hyperinflation! (Inflation results when the supply of money increases even though there has been no increase in the amount of actual goods and services people are seeking to buy.)

Gold As Money is a technology. It was a very good technology for its day, but that doesn’t necessarily mean we should go back to it, any more than we should go back to the U.S.S. Constitution for our naval defense needs, even though it may look prettier than an Aegis missile cruiser.

Demand changes because of the perception of people in every country. If a majority of the citizens of the World decide that the economies of the countries represented by the Euro are likely to not do well in the next year, then the demand for the Euro as a currency are lessened. Conversely, a majority of the people of the World, on the same day, might think that the economy of the US seems like it’s likely to grow faster in the next year. So they would rather own US dollars rather than Euros. This is what happened in 1999-2000. The majority of people in the World decided that the economies of the Euro nations were gonna do poorer than that of the US. Thus, the Euro became worth only eighty nine cents US. :eek: In the last year the Euro was worth at the high point about $1.60US, because the World believed that the economies of Europe would outperform the US in the next few years.

Today the Euro is valued at about $1.30 by the World because the majority are worried about the world economy, and are betting heavier on the US dollar than the Euro, at least in these uncertain times.

But, stick around, things change all the time.

On a more practical level, exchange rates mostly fluctuate because investors think certain currencies will provide better interest rates (better returns on investment) or less risk in the future. But there’s a huge number of things which go into this.

When somebody says something is so obvious it doesn’t need to be explained, you should alwys ask for an explanation.

So explain to me why you can accept the idea that people place a value on a piece of metal but not accept the idea that people place a value on a piece of paper. The fact that there are dealers who will willingly trade you dollars for gold or gold for dollars should make it clear that both items have a recognized value.

Scarcity is a factor. But it isn’t an explanation.

Most people would rather have one autograph from Tom Hanks than a dozen autographs from me. This would be true even if there are twice as many of Tom Hanks’ autographs in the world than there are of mine. This is an indication that people value his autograph more highly than mine even though mine are rarer.

Because currency is backed by the government. The value that people place on a nation’s currency is a reflection of how much faith they have in the economic stability of that nation.

That doesn’t explain why foreigners would place a value on a currency. The dollar has a recognized value in countries where there is no American authority to back it up.

Federal Reserve notes are redeemed not by consumers, but by member banks if they return them to their district FRB. The latter increases the member bank’s FR deposit and reduces its note issue liability accordingly. On the asset side of the FRB, the notes are backed mainly by what the description calls “securities”, but I’m not sure exactly what that is–Treasury bonds, mostly, I think. There’s also a comparatively tiny, tiny amount in gold certificates on the asset side, on the order of 11B. The total outstanding note issue is on the order of 781T.

I have explained this a million times.

If your explanation as to why money has value is because “dealers will willingly trade you dollars for gold”, and that satisfies you, all the power to you.

You don’t seem prepared to accept that gold started getting accepted for trade after and as a direct result of it being sort after for its intrinsic properties (a process that commodity-less money never went through). This is a key, fundamental difference between commodity-less money and gold, in terms of how they got their value.

Blimey, all kinds of local variables - anything that can affect the cost of doing something.

Mostly, those variables damp each other out, or are insignificant anyway - sometimes, they are significant enough to drag values in one direction for a while - and sometimes, that act of dragging causes a reaction that gives rise to a shift the other way, or a magnification of the original effect.

And not all causes affect all things in the same way, everywhere.

There’s no simple, single answer - there are too many details.

CalD, this is where you are wrong, in fact completely bass-ackwards. Gold as money and paper as money have value for the exact same reason:

Not because it can be worn around your neck or used for electrical contacts. Nor because we all ‘believe’ and have faith that it is so. Especially not just because the government says so.

Money has value simply because we agree it does, every time we negotiate our salaries or buy things at the store. Rather, I should say ‘money represents value’, because the ‘value’ of money resides in the fact that we won’t be tempted to eat it or build our houses with it or anything else. In other words, money has value in not having value of its own, but in ‘storing’ the value of other things, like labor or commodities.

We agree with our employers that $10 is worth an hour of my time doing X. We agree with the merchant that the same $10 is worth a sack of potatoes or whatever. This same process went on when gold was the currency of choice and has nothing to do with whether that currency also looked pretty when worn in small loops on my fingers or hanging off of my ears.

The reason we went off the gold standard (I’m talking world-wide here, not the particular circumstances of the US) is that the gold supply doesn’t grow with the economy, resulting in massive deflation. Not to mention that gold isn’t ideal as currency precisely because of the ‘intrinsic’ value you keep talking about.

Gold as a commodity was one of the downsides of gold as money. Ideally, no one should be tempted to use money for anything except spending it. The choice to spend money should be based on the trade off between getting something now, or the opportunity cost of getting something later instead. The choice shouldn’t be whether I want to spend my money or use it as jewelery instead.

Are you saying I am wrong on this point:

“Gold started getting accepted for trade after and as a direct result of it being sort after for its intrinsic properties (a process that commodity-less money never went through)”.

Is that what you’re saying I am wrong on?

That gold did not rise to be accepted by everyone as money, as a result of a critical mass of people wanting it for its intrinsic properties, and then through a series of positive feedback loops within a market, everyone began accepting it?

A process that commodity-less money never went through?

I am wrong on that point?