Typically jails are run by the county, and prisons are run by the state or the federal government.
People who are arrested and then released on a minor matter are often not even taken to the jail, just held at the police station while the police to do the paperwork and call the bail commissioner, who can let someone bail themselves out if its for a small amount.
I am not entirely sure what you mean by the latter general statement but interestingly enough, when it comes to DP regarding booking there does not appear to exist one, at least from my personal experience.
I took a few graduate level Criminal Justice courses on procedures back in school to see if I would enjoy going into law and read/wrote about a number of important cases regarding DP in US. One major take away from it all was that from the time you are arrested, you do not have to say a word nor can a word be said to you if you simply say “lawyer.” Unfortunately, shortly after this course I had the chance to try this out as I was arrested for a DUI.
Doesn’t work for booking. All the case law I had read that the reason there is no talking to be done between you and cops (or even between cops in your presence to incite comments from you) until an attorney is present as everything you say is self-incriminating.
Well, a funny thing happened - they couldn’t book me. Or at least that is what I was told. I did not give them my SSN (not sure why the DL wasn’t enough), and so, they threw me in an empty cell, called in 2 prosecutors who both tried to threaten me to give the info, etc. and kept me there for about 16 hours until they finally somehow managed to book me. I can still remember the look on the guy’s face when he found my info on his computer, did a double take, turned to the other guy and in utter confusion said “his record is clean.” Almost made up for the 16 hours of no food/water/clothes in a cold Boston cell, while being deprived of sleep (each time I drifted off, they would rush in and wake me up and threaten me more).
I don’t know how legal or illegal any of this was, nor did I have any kind of resources to find out. It was a small department in a quiet wealthy Boston suburbia where they basically had no crime. Cops there were notorious for random stops and crappy ass tickets. The report that was written on my arrest was falsified, and I had maybe 2k to my name. Maybe if I were rich, I would have looked into lawyers and seeing if any of that stuff warranted a suit or if my case could have been completely thrown out. (Charges were eventually dismissed, but unfortunately, it is too late at that point as you can never erase them from an international background check, which is on the permanent FBI record somewhere - no one in US sees it, but each time I travel, I have to carry the court document that says the case was dismissed because the charge still shows up - it doesn’t say dismissed after it… but that’s neither here nor there).
Regarding booking though… I never quite understood this - how can they book homeless people who probably don’t carry IDs around or people without SSNs, or were they just fucking with me because there weren’t any judges available to arraign me, I’m not really sure. All I remember is them (cops and the prosecutors) telling me you will get your lawyer after you are booked as you do not need one before it. Man, what a mess that was.
Morale of the story… Don’t drink and drive. Or do anything illegal… or get arrested… it sucks when you’re poor.
Mostly backwards. 
Jails are run by the county sheriffs, and are where criminal defendants are detained: (1) before they’re tried if they can’t (or aren’t allowed to) bail out, and (2) after conviction to serve sentences of detention for less than a year.
The judicial aspect of jails is:
*some people in civil cases (3) end up in jail for civil contempt, which involves being detained for violating a court order until (generally speaking) the person complies with it.
Prisons are strictly for serving sentences of detention longer than a year, and are run by the state department of corrections (or prisons, or the like).
The federal system makes the same split, substituting U.S. Marshal Service for the county sheriffs (except for the policing part) and Federal Bureau of Prisons for the state departments of correction.
No, the 4th Amendment here in the States is in place to make sure no person is deprived of life or liberty without DP of law.
I don’t know what England’s equivalent of our 4th is?
The U.S. has those too, state specific.
IF you refuse to ID yourself, that is problematical for you, you are a JOHN DOE, but they can still take your photo/fingerprints.
This however, will not negate your arraignment time. You still need to be arraigned in a timely manner. If you refuse to ID yourself in open court, the Judge has no choice but to refuse bail.
(shortened for clarity)
I have a few general questions about Germans detaining a suspect before the police van arrives OR before they are actually arrested.
Who “caught” or “can catch” a shoplifter? The police? A store employee? A customer? Everyone/anyone?
Who can detain the shoplifter? (You stole those shoes. No, I didn’t. I saw you. You’re mistaken. No, I’m not. Prove it. You’re wearing them. I bought these shoes yesterday. Prove it. You’ll have to stay here until the police arrive. Piss off. Wait, you can’t just walk away. You’re not a police officer. etc.)
How much physical force can be used to detain a shoplifter, assuming they don’t want to be detained and resort to physical force in order to flee? Wrestling holds? Strongarm tactics? Catch-as-catch-can? A baton?
I’m just curious how this scenario would actually play out and I’m not planning a crime spree in Düsseldorf.
Well…the thing about no statements without an attorney only pertains to the case. The police can and will ask you to identify yourself and you should comply with their requests. That is not self-incriminatory in any manner, so it’s not covered by Miranda et al. The operative case law isHiibel.
If I may, Hiibel does not control, from Pennsylvania v. Muniz;
The relevant statute would be section 127 subsection 1 of the Code of Criminal Procedure (subsection 2 dealing with arrest by police). Anyone can provisionally arrest a criminal, but only if he’s already on the run from the law, or if he’s caught in the act and his identity is not yet established (i.e. I can provisionally arrest a stranger I caught in the act, but not someone whom I know by name and address - in the latter case I have to let him go then make a statement to police). As long as the other person does not attack me, I am constrained to means not dangerous to the other’s health - if he attacks me I can use the more harmful means allowed under self defence.
I have been on the other end once - been on a train and my return ticket had expired (I had expected to be sent home after the previous evening’s date :D), i.e. having been caught in the act of committing the crime of obtaining services by deception. The conductor had the right to take down my ID data (for more than a stated number of occurrences in a stated time they lodge a criminal complaint, other wise they just make one pay). If I had declined to provide ID she’d have been within her rights to bar my way to leaving the train until police arrived. Police would then have had the right to detain me as long as neccessary to identify me but not longer (detention for the purpose of identification is not thought to constitute arrest but is a separate police power).
An example of a case of applying § 127 (1) StPO in my town of residence: some weeks ago an energetic fight broke out in a supermarket between (1) a shoplifter [well known to the police], (2) two store clerks who confronted him, (3) two buddies [also known to the police] of the shoplifter who came to the aid of the first party, (4) three shoppers who came to the aid of the second party. The police arrested the thief and his buddies, but only for a few hours - after they were checked for injuries, IDed and the loot (a small bottle of spirits) was produced they were sent on their way. They will be prosecuted for assault in due course. The clerks and shoppers were commended in the police’s statement from which I assume they were acting within the law.
Again - I am by no means any time of legal expert so please take what I said/say with a grain of salt. I was merely responding to the OP’s obfuscating issue regarding booking (I’m not entirely sure what the OP was referring to precisely - it was my understanding that the OP was under the impression that booking is part of DP, which is the assumption that prompted my response - I do not mean to say that it is…). That being said, I did mean to say that what I had learned at the time was that it implicitly was.
The case that you had linked is interesting but it was a ruling made after or right around my course/arrest and I’m skeptical whether any of the small town cops were familiar.
More importantly, in the same wiki article it stipulates “however, the Court left open the possibility that Fifth Amendment privilege might apply in a situation where there was a reasonable belief that giving a name could be incriminating.[1]” I’m not sure why I’m doing it (middle of my current pre-Calc lesson - this is me taking a break… lulz) but I’m reading through the actual brief and in it, it stipulates: “This statute is narrower and more precise. In contrast to the “credible and reliable” identification requirement in Kolender, the Nevada Supreme Court has interpreted the instant statute to require only that a suspect disclose his name.”
It further goes on to explicitly say " It apparently does not require him to produce a driver’s license or any other document." They wanted more than my name for the purposes of booking (again, this is what happened - as was pointed out here - I am quite sure none of that is required to book and arraign me or else… no one could be booked and it would just be silly, so alas, I can only reach the conclusion that they were fucking with me out of boredom) Don’t remember more of the details really - it was such a long time ago.
It could also be argued that me identifying my name could be used against me as I am a Russian immigrant (though I am a citizen), and could have a reason to believe my name alone could be used against me (believe me, I had to Americanize it to receive job offers and to prevent bunch of snide comments, not to mention the obvious commie etc. crap you get as a kid - so for a 21 year old - I don’t think it would be unreasonable to think that the name that up to that point had produced negative responses from the American community may be equally harmful - not that I actually thought this as I wasn’t a lawyer or anything - but the ruling does open that door - and now I will think this).
In fact, based on the last part of that ruling - I now have more compelling reason not to disclose it:
“If a case arises where there is a substantial allegation that furnishing identity at the time of a stop would have given the police a link in the chain of evidence needed to convict the individual of a separate offense, the court can then consider whether the Fifth Amendment privilege applies, whether it has been violated, and what remedy must follow.”
I’m not entirely sure what this means, given its vagueness, but if I get a 2nd DUI, disclosing my name would allow for them to find the first (the 2nd is an auto felony in most states and so, arguably, even though the first was dismissed, wouldn’t it count as part of the chain I would not want to give the police until I get the lawyer? Or maybe I’ve done other stuff… which I have - nothing bad but who the fuck knows if any of that would fall under the above stipulation, as my name may or may not be part of the link to the separate chain that they may be pursuing or whatever)
Okay I gotta admit - I really like law.
Wish I had the money for law school (I got in, 170s LSATs and summa but… personal life got in the way… bankrupt/default loans, go me) =/
They can’t release you if they don’t know who you are. The point of the booking process is to figure out who you are, so that of you don’t come back to court, they can find you. Otherwise, the arrest would be pointless.
FWIW, in Austin, they’ve moved to cite and release policy on low-level misdemeanors - POM, for example, and shoplifting. If you live in county, and can prove who you are, they’ll give you a summons to show up to court later for magistration and bail (generally a PR bond).
Thanks for the info. Ignorance fought.
As is typical when people from other countries question or discuss the American legal process a lot of facts are either off base or misunderstood.
Actually the differences between the U.S. and Germany are not that profound. In many jurisdictions in the United States certain minor misdemeanors, the police issue you a citations and there will be information on when you need to show up in court to address the matter. For those, you would not typically be brought to a police station for processing unless they had no way to identify you. In that case they would need to bring you until they were satisfied as to your identity.
This is a flawed system by the way. One of my best friends has a dirt bag brother who has been arrested for every misdemeanor on the books in Virginia (only a slight exaggeration.) Well, in Virginia for one of these “cite and release” crimes if you do not have photo identification on you then if you give the officer certain information like DOB / SSN or etc they can look you up in the computer in their cars and pull your record. Well, my friend’s brother looks enough like him that anytime his dirt bag brother is arrested for one of these “cite and release” offenses he claims he has “forgotten” his driver’s license (it’s been suspended essentially permanently for a half dozen or more DUIs and prior driving while suspended charges.) But he does happily giver the officer all his personal information, which is of course my friend’s information and not his own. The officer looks him up, says “yeah, that’s you” and releases him.
My friend has had to go into court some dozen times to explain that it was not he who was arrested / cited, and that his brother has impersonated him using his personal information. My friend has asked if there is no way in the system to “flag” that this is happening, so an arresting officer would be notified of this when he retrieves his information but they’ve essentially said that isn’t possible.
This is actually more draconian than a “cite and release” offense in the U.S., what you’re describing is an actual booking no different than one that happens in a police station here. Police in Germany have just been given resources to do this in the field and in a streamlined process. I wouldn’t be surprised if some more tech savvy U.S. departments have invested in similar systems, but I’ve never seen it anywhere I’ve lived.
Americans have guns. Nonviolent offenses are often committed by violent people, so if you are going to arrest you need to do due diligence for officer safety. If the only counter argument is “but this is a middle class person of means, how could you!” then you’re basically saying if I’m a police officer I should give a middle class non violent offender special treatment but a “shady” looking non violent offender who is black or white trash harsher treatment. There are issues with that.
America has violent criminals, this was a recent officer shooting in West Virginia. The State Police pull a guy over for driving a stolen vehicle (nonviolent crime.) They do arrest and handcuff him, but I guess out of feeling like the guy wasn’t dangerous they cuff his hands in front of him instead of behind his back (if you’ve ever been handcuffed, it’s a lot more comfortable this way–but the person handcuffed can more effectively defend themselves.) That was one major mistake these two State Police made. The second was they did not properly search him.
As they sat in the front of the cruiser, the guy reached down and pulled out a pistol that he had concealed and shot both of the troopers at point blank range in the back of the head. One died instantly, the article mentions the other in “critical condition” but he actually died three days later after being in a coma and never regaining consciousness. When the tow truck driver arrived that the police had called to tow the stolen car, the criminal shot him too and then fled into the woods where he was later killed in a shootout with the county sheriff.
This is a guy who had no record of violent crime, and while he was looking at a small amount of incarceration on a auto theft charge it wasn’t like he was being arrested for something that would put him in prison for years and years. He decided to kill two people, shoot and third, and then fight to the death with responding police over all that. So it’s not so easy to just assume a nonviolent offense has been committed by a person that’s safe to deal with.
There is no legal requirement that you produce ID to buy alcohol or pay for goods with check or credit card. There are business practices that business owners choose to engage in that might require ID for check or credit purchases.
I am only very infrequently asked for ID for credit card, as in less than once a year. Since I’m not 85 years old I don’t buy anything from retail stores with check.
For buying alcohol States impose a requirement that the seller verifies age, typically “if the person is under the age of 30.” It’s not an actual legal requirement on the individual buying the product, but on the person selling it. But since that person won’t sell it to you because of that legal requirement on themselves, it may not bee that easy to get alcohol with no ID. However lots of people have no ID at all, especially the urban poor or homeless. Typically their local neighborhood stores know them and sell to them with no hassle.
Everywhere I have lived, there is no requirement to carry your driver’s license with you while driving. If you get pulled over it can go down two ways. This I know from personal experience as I’ve been pulled over on my way to my gym, and when wearing my gym clothes I carry no wallet so typically don’t have ID on me. In my case, the officer verified who I was and that I had ID based on me giving information about myself and he looked me up. If he hadn’t been able to I would have needed to go to court at some point with proof I had a driver’s license. I was pulled over for expired vehicle registration btw, which in itself necessitates a visit to a court clerk with proof you have renewed registration after which the citation typically goes away (“fix it ticket”, so to speak.)