# Why does Batman still have young sidekicks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831 "2006-08-23T00:39:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/1 "2006-08-23T00:39:45Z")
It never ends well. Let’s recap, shall we? **Robin - Dick Grayson** , currently Nightwing. Still heroic, if troubled. **Batgirl - Barbara Gordon** , currently Oracle. Shot by the Joker and paralysed from the waist down, but currently still heroic. **Robin - Jason Todd** , currently Nightwing also. Killed by the Joker. Currently back, but evil. **Robin - Tim Drake** , current Robin. Still heroic, if troubled. **Robin - Stephanie Brown**. Horribly tortured and killed. **Batgirl - Cassandra Cain** , current Batgirl. Went through a period of evilness recently, so far not explained. So that’s two full “wins”. Two uncertains. And two complete losses. Bear in mind also, though, that both Dick and Tim aren’t exactly the most stable people. So why exactly does Batman keep taking on these kids? He’s clearly somewhat insane, but does that account for this totally? And why doesn’t he at least take on a kid sidekick with powers? There’s enough of them nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Rhosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sir\_Rhosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Rhosis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/2 "2006-08-23T01:11:22Z")
Don’t have an answer to why, just a guess–he feels a kinship to the young people, most of whom are orphaned/messed up as he was as a kid. Also, just wanted to note my own opinion about a “kid sidekick with powers.” I’m probably the only comic fan who feels this way, but… I HATE the fact that Batman is in the same continuity as other DC superheroes who have strange, weird, mystical, whatever powers. I wish Gotham had been left on its own, away from the rest of the DC world. I just like the gritty fellow that Bob Kane and Bill Finger created back in '39. Sir Rhosis ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/3 "2006-08-23T01:17:46Z")
Total non comics person here: “Robin” is more than one person? Is it actually just a sort of job title that has been filled by multiple people? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Il_Palazzo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/4 "2006-08-23T01:19:48Z")
> [@Sir Rhosis](#): > > Don’t have an answer to why, just a guess–he feels a kinship to the young people, most of whom are orphaned/messed up as he was as a kid. I think (personal opinion, not supported by any citations) that this is probably close to the truth. Bruce Wayne’s guardians were forcibly taken from him when he was a child. Thus, as an adult, he feels compelled to act as guardian to children whose situations in some way reflect his own. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/5 "2006-08-23T01:40:21Z")
He needs the occasional infusion of fresh personal tragedy to keep his angst going—it gives him a reason to keep fighting. It’s stable right now, but eventually, he’s going to start developing a tolerance for it…he’ll have to recruit a half-dozen or so troubled young wards at a time, and have them destroyed within a few months, to equal the power he got from losing one ward every couple of decades when he first started his crusade. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Il_Palazzo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/6 "2006-08-23T01:41:13Z")
> [@Lama Pacos](#): > > Total non comics person here: “Robin” is more than one person? Is it actually just a sort of job title that has been filled by multiple people? Yes, there have been (if I recall; I haven’t followed the comics at all recently) four separate Robins. Below is a summary of the various Robins from DC’s main continuity. (The spoiler box is just to be safe.) [SPOILER]\*Dick Grayson: The original Robin. Dick was originally part of a family circus acrobat act until his family was murdered and Batman took him in. Dick’s still alive and operating under the name Nightwing. \*Jason Todd: Something of a loose canon. Batman first met him steeling the tires off the batmobile. He was killed by the Joker after ignoring Batman’s orders. Naturally, Batman blames himself. Jason was primarily a brawler. \*Tim Drake: I know less about the Robin’s from here on but I’ve got some knowledge. Tim was interested in detective work and actively sought the mantel of Robin, finding Batman’s secret identity. He’s still active as Robin (though he resigned for a time at his father’s insistence.) \*Stephanie Brown: The girl wonder. She was the daughter of a villain named the Cluemaster and fought him by taking the identity of Spoiler, helping the heroes to solve the Cluemaster’s riddles. Stephanie had previously been romantically involved Tim and when he resigned the role of Robin, she took over. She was too eager to prove herself and inadvertently started a gang war in Gotham. She was tortured to death by a mob boss (called the Black Mask if I recall.) [/SPOILER]For more and more accurate information, I’d recommend [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_%28comics%29) wikipedia article about the various Robin’s (with links to the articles to the specific bearers of the title.) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/7 "2006-08-23T01:48:32Z")
Just to add to \*\*Lord Il Pallazzo’s \*\* excellent summary, Dick Grayson as Nightwing is not a sidekick, but a hero-type in his own right now. They do still work together on occasion, though. Same for Barbara Gordon. While Batman seems to age a lot less comparitively, Dick, Barbara, and Jason are all adults now. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/8 "2006-08-23T02:04:31Z")
The first two Robins were taken in as orphans, and, post-Crisis, Jason was a criminal who Batman thought needed guidance. The second two Robins sort of inserted themselves into the Batfamily on their own initiative. Tim figured out who Batman was, and snuck into the Batcave, asking for, and getting, the identity of Robin. Steph was dating Tim for a while, and hung around with the Batfamily as Spoiler, until Tim retired (temporarily), and she talked Batman into making her the new Robin. Tim became Robin again after Steph’s death. Cassie, similarily, proved herself during No Man’s Land, before being taken into the Batfamily. (Becoming Barbara’s ward.) She was already a fighter at least on par with Batman. Barbara was never actually that young - she was a librarian when she started out as Batgirl, meaning she was a college graduate. Unlike the other 5, too, she didn’t seek to get in, nor did Batman actively seek her out. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/9 "2006-08-23T03:54:23Z")
After Jason Todd’s death, Batman actually operated without a sidekick for a while, and intended to do so forever. But not having a “lighter side” personality to complement his dark persona, he began to sink more and more into reckless brutality, getting away from the finessed detective work that was usually his trademark. Tim Drake helped Batman realize that, and that convinced him to continue taking on sidekicks. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/10 "2006-08-23T04:04:09Z")
Technically Tim Drake figured out who Dick Grayson was and was then easily able to deduce who Batman was. One of the few Batman comics I read was the issue where Tim finds the Batcave and lays everything out to Batman. As a young kid he saw the Flying Graysons at the circus. He saw the young Dick do a particular and unique acrobatic move that really stuck with him. Years later he saw live news coverage of Batman and Robin fighting the Penguin. He then saw Robin do this same exact acrobatic move. He figure out that Robin must be Dick Grayson and then if Grayson is Bruce Wayne’s ward then… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/11 "2006-08-23T05:04:52Z")
So far, everybody in this thread seems to be dancing around [the obvious.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia)😉 CORPORATE LACKEY: You have violated the Batmobile morals clause! DREW CAREY: Morals clause?! This guy kept a teenaged boy in a cave! ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/12 "2006-08-23T05:12:10Z")
There was also the Robin in Dark Knight Returns. Maybe she doesn’t count, as I don’t know if it shares continuity. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Lord\_Il\_Palazzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Il_Palazzo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/13 "2006-08-23T11:39:47Z")
> [@Talon Karrde](#): > > There was also the Robin in Dark Knight Returns. Maybe she doesn’t count, as I don’t know if it shares continuity. Dark Knight Returns is outside of normal continuity so I didn’t mention Carrie Kelly in the earlier summary. From what I recall, she was a big Batman fan and when Batman came out of retirement (he retired after Jason’s death in the DKR continuity), she became the new Robin. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/14 "2006-08-23T14:32:49Z")
> [@Lama Pacos](#): > > Total non comics person here: “Robin” is more than one person? Is it actually just a sort of job title that has been filled by multiple people? You’ll find this is true of most of the DC superheroes – multiple individuals have taken up a single identity, sometimes temporarily, sometimes on a more permanent basis – Batman – Bruce Wayne, Jean-Paul Valley, Dick Grayson Superman – Clark Kent, Conner Kent, Hank Henshaw, David Connor, John Henry Irons Wonder Woman – Diana Prince, Artemis, Hippolyta Superboy – Clark Kent, Conner Kent Flash – Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, Wally West, Bart Allen Green Lantern (of Earth) – Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner Wonder Girl – Diana Prince, Donna Troy, Cassandra Sandsmark Batgirl – Betty Kane, Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli, Cassandra Cain Black Canary – Dinah Drake Lance, Dinah Laurel Lance Supergirl – Linda Lee Danvers, the Matrix, Linda Danvers, Mia, and more Green Arrow – Oliver Queen, Connor Hawke Phantom Lady – Sandra Knight, Dee Tyler, Stormy Knight ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/15 "2006-08-23T15:50:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Superboy – Clark Kent, Conner Kent > Wonder Girl – Diana Prince, Donna Troy, Cassandra Sandsmark > Batgirl – Betty Kane, Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli, Cassandra Cain > Supergirl – Linda Lee Danvers, the Matrix, Linda Danvers, Mia, and more Just to avoid confusion on these: Connor’s from a different continuity from any where Clark had a public carreer as Superboy - pre-Crisis, there was no Connor; post-Crisis, originally, Clark didn’t get his powers until adulthood; and current continuity, while he had powers as a youth, the ‘superboy’ was only a rumour. The Princess Diana and Donna Troy Wonder Girls are technically the same character, due to a continuity screwup, and it’s best to ignore the Diana version, lest you get a serious headache. (Also she took the name Diana Prince long after her time as Wonder Girl.) Betty Kane was not Bat-Girl in current continuity, just Barbara, Helena, and Cassie. Helena is AKA Huntress, taken from another no-longer-in-continuity character. Betty (whose name is now spelled Bette) has only been Flamebird. Linda Lee Danvers is entirely out of continuity. Matrix has been stated to be out of continuity, although they’ve been coy on Linda Danvers. Mia/Cir-El erased herself from continuity. With the possible exception of Linda, the only currently in continuity Supergirl is the current Kara Zor-El (who does not have a secret identity). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/16 "2006-08-23T16:00:30Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > And why doesn’t he at least take on a kid sidekick with powers? There’s enough of them nowadays. Because they don’t need or want his help ? Especially given his track record with sidekicks. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/17 "2006-08-23T16:13:55Z")
Yeah, Tengu, I’m aware of the continuity issues, but I didn’t think it worth going into details, especially since they’re constantly changing their minds about these things. The basic fact is that in picking up superhero stories published at different times, you’ll see different people taking on the roles of certain characters. More: Speedy – Roy Harper, Mia Dearden Kid Flash – Wally West, Bart Allen Guardian – Jim Harper, Mal Duncan Spectre – Jim Corrigan, Hal Jordan Doctor Fate – Kent Nelson, Eric and Linda Strauss, Inza Nelson, Fate, Hector Hall Hawkman – Carter Hall, Katar Hol, Fel Andar, Charley Parker Hawkgirl/woman – Shiera Sanders, Kendra Saunders, Shayera Hol, Sharon Parker, Shayera Thal ---
**Author:** ![Cherry\_Garcia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71c47a/32.png) [@Cherry\_Garcia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cherry_Garcia)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/18 "2006-08-23T17:03:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So far, everybody in this thread seems to be dancing around [the obvious.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia)😉 > > CORPORATE LACKEY: You have violated the Batmobile morals clause! > > DREW CAREY: Morals clause?! This guy kept a teenaged boy in a cave! Great episode! That one made me a Drew Carey fan. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/19 "2006-08-23T17:08:26Z")
I agree with **Brainglutton**. Why does Batman always have a young male “sidekick?” Wy does Michael Jackson always have a 12 year old “friend” on the plane with him? Let’s apply Occam’s razor here. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831/20 "2006-08-23T18:03:46Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Kid Flash – Wally West, Bart Allen And Iris West, if we’re going to go with alternate continuities. > [@](#): > > Spectre – Jim Corrigan, Hal Jordan And Crispus Allen, the new guy. Some more: **Mister Terrific** - Terry Sloan and Michael Holt **Dr Mid-nite/Midnight** - Dr Charlie McNider, Beth Chapel, Dr Pieter Cross **Wildcat** - Ted Grant, Yolanda Montez **Huntress** - Paula Brooks (AKA Tigress), Helena Wayne, Helena Bertinelli **Star Spangled Kid** - Sylvester Pemberton, Courtney Whitmore (now AKA Stargirl) **Starman** - Ted Knight, Bruce Wayne (out of continuity)/Dr Charlie McNider, David Knight, Mikaal Tomas, Prince Gavyn of Throneworld, Will Payton, Jack Knight, ‘David Blaine’/Thom Kallor, Farris Knight, possibly a new character (or it might just be ‘David Blaine’ again) \* **Hourman** - Rex Tyler, Rick Tyler, the Android. \*\*Starfire \*\*- Leonid Kovar (Now Red Star), Starfire (Sword and Sorcery character with an iffy place in the DCU), Princess Koriand’r of Tamaran **Catwoman** - Selena Kyle, Holly Robinson **Nightwing** - Kal-El/Clark Kent, Van Zee, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Cheyenne Freemont, Kara Zor-L/Karen Starr \* \*\*Flamebird \*\*- Jimmy Olsen, Ak-Var, Bette Kane, Kara Zor-El \* **Dr Light** - Arthur Light, Kimiyo Hoshi **Thunder** - Gan Williams, CeCe Beck, Annissa Piers **Blue Beetle** - Dan Garret, Ted Kord, Jaime Reyes **Captain Marvel** - Billy Batson, Mary Batson, Freddy Freeman (assumed future development) **Sandman** - Wesley Dodds, Dr Garret Sanford, Hector Hall, Sanderson Hawkins, Dream of the Endless \* **Aquaman** - Arthur Curry/King Orin of Atlantis, Arthur Joseph Curry We could be here forever on these lists. DC reuses names for trademark-protection purposes (see Starfire), even if they don’t follow a legacy with them. - A lot of the characters on these lists had only brief appearances under that name. I’ve left them just because the dividing line between major carriers of the name and lesser ones is very difficult to draw. Bruce Wayne’s included on the Starman list because that story directly inspired the Charlie McNider as Starman story, for instance. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-batman-still-have-young-sidekicks/369831.md?page=2)