# Why does Brazil have a navy complete with Submarines **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 24, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591 "2008-12-24T20:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/1 "2008-12-24T20:57:20Z")
To the point they’re dropping serious coin on developing a nuclear submarine propulsion system? I get that even Brazil might get in a spat with Urugay, or Argentina - but subs? Isn’t that more a total war type weapon? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/2 "2008-12-24T21:07:44Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > To the point they’re dropping serious coin on developing a nuclear submarine propulsion system? I get that even Brazil might get in a spat with Urugay, or Argentina - but subs? Isn’t that more a total war type weapon? No more so than any other warship. As for why; either they think they need it, or they want a stronger military as a status symbol. That’s how it usually works. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/3 "2008-12-24T21:20:39Z")
It is hard for Brazil to justify having a big navy-it’s potential rivals (Argentina, Uruguay) are not heavily armed. he nuclear sub thing is all about defending Brazil’s offshore oil fileds-which are in very deep water, and off the Rio coast. At present, the submarine fleet sonsists of ex-Royal Navy “Oberon” Class diesel-electric subs-these are getting old, and due for replacement. But the cost of nuclear subs is very high-I cannt see Brazil spending that kind of money. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/4 "2008-12-24T21:26:59Z")
Brazil has [almost 7,500 km](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/br.html#Geo) of coastline. And, although there have been no serious inter-state conflicts in South America in a while, Brazil has been in [a few](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina%E2%80%93Brazil_War) [wars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Triple_Alliance) in its history (not to mention being at least officially on the Allied side in World War I and a [fairly serious participant on the Allied side in World War II](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Expeditionary_Force_(FEB))). And South America in general [has seen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Confederation) [a number](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chincha_Islands_War) [of inter-state](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific) [wars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_War) [over the years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_War) (some of which have had a strong naval component). ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/5 "2008-12-24T21:50:48Z")
They have about a third of the coastline of South America. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/6 "2008-12-24T22:03:44Z")
You can’t be Top Nation without submarines. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/7 "2008-12-24T22:12:30Z")
What an odd question. Why on earth _wouldn’t_ they have a military? All nations want to have the ability to defend themselves should the need arise. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/8 "2008-12-24T22:17:32Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > What an odd question. Why on earth _wouldn’t_ they have a military? All nations want to have the ability to defend themselves should the need arise. Except Costa Rica and Vatican City. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/9 "2008-12-24T22:39:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > …Vatican City. Don’t forget the [Swiss Guards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swiss_Guard.jpg)! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/10 "2008-12-24T22:51:27Z")
Also, very recently a whole heapin’ lotta oil has been found under waters in their jurisdiction, off of that very long coast and some Atlantic islands they own. They’re gonna want to be able to control very closely that large expanse of ocean, and at least be able to be taken seriously by the Great Powers in that corner of the Atlantic. And at that, subs are very, very useful, high-bang-for-the-buck weapons for sea-denial, and if you can make it be nuke-powered subs, even better, since that gives you extremely long reach and endurance. No, subs are not “total war” weapons; what they are are no-nonsense this-is-real-war weapons: a sub does not huff and puff and try to impress you, it kills you when you’re not expecting it. And if you have to worry that a Brazilian SSN will be on you the moment you leave your own home waters or enter theirs, you may decide to just stay away. Specially since nobody else in the region has aircraft carriers from which to project long-distance ASW – and guess what: Brazil fields the only fleet carrier homeported in the region (French made, BTW). And that’s part of the deal: Brazil has had a policy of fielding a proper “bluewater” navy or a reasonable facsimile thereof for a long time. Now they may have an even better reason to do so, so this is modernizing, expanding and upgrading, which is to be expected. Besides, even though under DaSilva Brazil’s nominally “left”, they’re not about to let a wildcard like Chavez be the only guy in the neighborhood doing major updates to his frontline conventional forces. Absent Venezuela’s oil wealth, the obvious Regional Power, by population, economy and industrial base would be Brazil and there’s probably a big component of pride in making sure they stay ahead. Argentina’s military might may be a laugh now, but pre-Falklands it aimed \* on paper\* to be a reasonable match to Brazil. Of course, as a consequence of \*that \*froofraw the discredited Argentine military was allowed to wither away over 20 years to the point they may no longer be a threat even to themselves. But that is by no means irreversible. Still such a major refurbishment by Brazil can actually have a discouraging effect on any Argie aspiration of a rebuild, since now it would be that much harder and costlier to try to get back to Brazil’s level in both numbers and quality. So the Brazilian government probably have a whole lot of strategic, geopolitical, economic (building ships in a joint venture = jobs) and internal-political reasons to do this, and if they have the money and the French are willing to partner, well, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/11 "2008-12-24T22:57:10Z")
Argentina has three more or less modern subs. Chile, the other quasi-significant Latin American naval power, has four. Brazil, which aspires to regional superpower status ( a la India in south Asia ), has five currently in service. Sure it’s partly prestige, but you never know when some silly spat might transform into a serious conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/12 "2008-12-24T22:57:47Z")
Just because they don’t have enemies now, doesn’t mean they won’t have them in 5 or 10 years. And you need to have them built just in case. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/13 "2008-12-24T23:06:53Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > What an odd question. Why on earth _wouldn’t_ they have a military? All nations want to have the ability to defend themselves should the need arise. Exactly. Any country that is capable of doing so is currently tooling up so as to ensure that their resources aren’t liberated in the name of “freedom” - in the case of Brazil I would be surprised if they haven’t already resurrected their atom bomb project. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/14 "2008-12-24T23:10:23Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Don’t forget the [Swiss Guards](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Swiss_Guard.jpg)! And the Vatican submarine fleet has traditionally been manned by the [Swiss Navy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Army#Naval_Patrol). ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/15 "2008-12-24T23:28:39Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > What an odd question. Why on earth _wouldn’t_ they have a military? All nations want to have the ability to defend themselves should the need arise. Thirded. One of the main purposes of having a country in the first place is for self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/16 "2008-12-24T23:31:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Except Costa Rica and Vatican City. Presumably they figure they don’t need to spend their money on a military because they can depend on other countries to defend them. And they’re almost certainly correct, since there’s no way Italy (and the EU) would lie back and accept an attack on the Vatican, especially because it would be REALLLLY hard to launch a military attack on the Vatican that didn’t somehow affect Rome as well. And it’s a pretty good bet that the US would come to Costa Rica’s defense should it be necessary. Brazil is a huge country with lots of Stuff and a long coastline, not a weird little mini-state or a tiny, peaceful country with a tourism based economy. They don’t really compare all that well. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/17 "2008-12-25T01:29:37Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > …Brazil is a huge country with lots of Stuff and a long coastline, not a weird little mini-state or a tiny, peaceful country with a tourism based economy. They don’t really compare all that well. **Kyla** said “all nations.” I respectfully disagreed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/18 "2008-12-25T01:50:24Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Presumably they figure they don’t need to spend their money on a military because they can depend on other countries to defend them. And probably just as important, they CAN’T effectively defend themselves out of their own resources. So spending money on expensive hardware that ( in the numbers they can afford ) wouldn’t be even a speed bump to an invader is less practical than depending on larger, more powerful but friendly outside allies. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/19 "2008-12-25T01:56:13Z")
I think it’d be cool to have a country so small that it has its own self-destruct button. Oh sure, you’d never use it… OR WOULD YOU? Just thinking about it would give invaders pause. “No one’s that crazy… but they DID wire their country to self-destruct… Who really knows how countries that small think?” When they challenge you on it, that’s when you laugh maniacally and claim to own an ejector seat. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591/20 "2008-12-25T02:11:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > **Kyla** said “all nations.” I respectfully disagreed. Are you talking about me _to_ me? I confuse. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-brazil-have-a-navy-complete-with-submarines/478591.md?page=2)