# Why does Chelsea Manning need a judge's approval for a name change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785 "2014-04-23T16:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/41 "2014-04-25T12:13:03Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > As far as what gender prison Manning will be in, I suspect the most logical choice would be of ‘‘The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or one’’ type, where the “many” are all the female inmates in a woman’s prison who might be made uncomfortable for a physical male fellow prisoner and the “one” would be Manning. I think it was a bad idea for Manning to identify as female. CM is already short, a pariah and rather effeminate, publicly identifying as female would just make CM more attractive to rapists. I know preop transwomen are classed as male by the Thai penal system. They get a lot of attention both positive and negative. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/42 "2014-04-25T13:28:05Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > From an overview of the comments sections on almost all news sites and blogs and newspaper comments sections, all this has done is bring out the transphobic trolls who want to find any “wedge issue” to try to depersonalize me and my people. But all the while there’s no real indication that Manning is trying for any sort of ploy. And add to them those who, apart from this specific issue, feel that a convicted felon in prison for major crimes has no grounds to seek any sort of redress in any aspect of personal rights or individual dignity, regardless of whether having anything to do with the crime and the legally mandated penalty. ---
**Author:** ![Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kansas\_Beekeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kansas_Beekeeper)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/43 "2014-04-25T14:25:59Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > From an overview of the comments sections on almost all news sites and blogs and newspaper comments sections, all this has done is bring out the transphobic trolls who want to find any “wedge issue” to try to depersonalize me and my people. But all the while there’s no real indication that Manning is trying for any sort of ploy. > > If, I repeat **if** Manning is truly transgender, then I fully expect a series of court battles to get hormones, get counseling, get female clothing, and even SRS. I doubt she’ll win most or even any of those cases, but she will try to her dying breath. Because when you are in the grip of full-on gender dysphoria (again, assuming she is transgender) then sometimes you would rather die than live as the wrong gender. I know because I’ve walked that road. Manning’s ability to litigate those issues is not without limit. Under the federal Prison Litigation Reform Act which applies to suits by prisoners brought in federal distsrict court, “The court shall on its own motion or on the motion of a party dismiss any action brought with respect to prison conditions under section 1983 of this title, or any other Federal law, by a prisoner confined in any jail, prison, or other correctional facility if the court is satisfied that the action is frivolous, malicious, fails to state a claim upon which relief can be granted, or seeks monetary relief from a defendant who is immune from such relief.” The way this is interpreted by most federal district courts including the federal district court in Kansas is that cases filed by prisoners are screened by the federal court and if found frivolous, dismissed on the court’s own initiative without requiring the defendants to answer. Additionally, while prisoners may file a case _in forma pauperis_–without paying the filing fee up front, under the PLRA they remain liable for the entire filing fee ($400) which the court will garnish from an inmate’s prison account. Further, if an inmate has three cases dismissed as frivolous, the inmate’s right to file without paying the fee is terminated. Finally, the PLRA prohibits claims for money damages for emotional distress by inmates without accompanying physical injury. [http://jailhouselaw.org/brief-summary-prison-litigation-reform-act/](http://jailhouselaw.org/brief-summary-prison-litigation-reform-act/) What this means for Manning as a practical matter is that she probably gets only one realistic shot at a lawsuit for hormones, SRS, etc. When she loses that suit, if she refiles the same or substantially similar suits, they will in all probability be summarily dismissed by the federal court without requiring an answer by the prison or federal government. I don’t know if Manning can pay filing fees up front, but if not, she will quickly lose the right to file without paying if she persists. The reason I’m inclined to take Manning at her word rather than think this is some sort of ploy is that the federal Disciplinary Barracks at Leavenworth have the reputation of being a very tough place to do time. By identifying as female, Manning has probably made herself the target for attacks by other inmates. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/44 "2014-04-25T15:54:23Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I think it was a bad idea for Manning to identify as female. If Manning is a transsexual this isn’t a matter of choice. Well, OK - then the choice is to lie for 30 years about what Manning is, likely miserable the whole time (and untransitioned transsexuals have _appalling_ rates of suicide) while being, as you note, small and effeminate and “attractive” to exactly the wrong sort of brute, or say something and _maybe_ get either segregated inceration with the other vulnerable prisoners (homosexuals, elderly, disabled - those most likely to be victims and least likely to be able to victimize others) or, if REALLY lucky, transition and wind up in a female prison where Manning is far less likely to be physically victimized. My understanding is that in US prisons transsexuals are sorted by their genitals, so if pre-bottom surgery a transwoman goes to a male prison and post-surgery to a female prison, but transition surgery is not done one prisoners in this country so really, unless things have changed since I last heard anything about this, the best Manning could hope for is segregation with the other “special” prisoners. Nonetheless, that might be a safer choice than being small and effeminate in the general population of a max security prison. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/45 "2014-04-25T16:10:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > … untransitioned transsexuals have _appalling_ rates of suicide… So do transitioned ones, and SRS does not appear to change the rate. So Manning and his supporters are going to have an uphill battle trying to sell this as medically necessary. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/46 "2014-04-25T17:48:14Z")
Incarcerated people are legally prevented from committing suicide, so we don’t officially need to worry about Manning committing suicide for lack of SRS. Nice how that all works out, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/47 "2014-04-25T18:17:28Z")
Thing is, people are incarcerated because they broke the law. Outlawing suicide in prisoners isn’t going to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/48 "2014-04-25T19:03:45Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Incarcerated people are legally prevented from committing suicide, so we don’t officially need to worry about Manning committing suicide for lack of SRS. Nice how that all works out, isn’t it? There was a certain amount of [kvetching](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/12/bradley-manning-cruel-inhuman-treatment-un) about how badly Manning was being treated because he was on suicide watch, back before he was convicted. And IIRC that was before he came out as transgender. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/49 "2014-04-25T19:27:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So do transitioned ones, and SRS does not appear to change the rate. That is not true, and it has been debunked over and over, so quit repeating it. That combined with your insistence on misgendering a trans person casts suspicion on your motives for repeating that fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/50 "2014-04-25T20:03:39Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > That is not true, and it has been debunked over and over, so quit repeating it. > [@](#): > > There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. > > The review of more than 100 international medical studies of post-operative transsexuals by the University of Birmingham’s aggressive research intelligence facility (Arif) found no robust scientific evidence that gender reassignment surgery is clinically effective. [Cite](http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth). > [@](#): > > Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. [Cite](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885). Any cites you would like to share about suicide rates for post-SRS transsexuals? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/51 "2014-04-25T20:48:51Z")
How embarrassingly pathetic even for Shodan. I’m not surprised that post-SRS transsexuals have higher rates of suicidal behavior than the general population. What I’d like to know is how do post-SRS rates stack up against pre-SRS rates. And I notice you didn’t quote very much of your first article either. > [@](#): > > Its review warns that the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants. For example, in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons. Dr Hyde said the high drop out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals. He called for the causes of their deaths to be tracked to provide more evidence. For all we know, they could be lost to followup because they are finally happy and ready to move on as a man or woman rather than a transsexual. > [@](#): > > Dr Hyde said: “The bottom line is that although it’s clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly.” > [@](#): > > Ms Burns added that the greatest flaws in medical literature about gender reassignment were in those studies unsympathetic to transsexual people. For example, one study was based on a survey of seven transsexual prostitutes interviewed in one gay bar in Chicago. > [@](#): > > Transgender psychiatrists, who assess whether patients should change sex, agree that more scientific research is needed. But Kevan Wylie, chairman of the Royal College of Psychiatrists’ working party on gender identity disorders, said that all of his patients’ lives have drastically improved following gender reassignment surgery. > [@](#): > > Mr Bellringer, who works at the main NHS gender identity clinic at Charing Cross hospital in west London, said: “I don’t think that any research that denied transsexual patients treatment would get past an ethics committee. There’s no other treatment that works. You either have an operation or suffer a miserable life. A fifth of those who don’t get treatment commit suicide.” Rather paints a different picture if you read more than the first paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/52 "2014-04-25T21:01:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > How embarrassingly pathetic even for Shodan. How predictably silly. > [@](#): > > I’m not surprised that post-SRS transsexuals have higher rates of suicidal behavior than the general population. What I’d like to know is how do post-SRS rates stack up against pre-SRS rates. Already answered. There is no evidence of any change in suicide rates, and post-op transsexuals are at higher risk of suicide than the general public - SRS does not cure the tendency IOW. > [@](#): > > For all we know, they could be lost to followup because they are finally happy and ready to move on as a man or woman rather than a transsexual. Or perhaps they committed suicide. Or perhaps you are trying to hand-wave. > [@](#): > > Rather paints a different picture if you read more than the first paragraph. Only if you consider unsupported opinion to be superior to scientific study. I’ll ask you the same thing - do you have cites to valid studies that show that SRS leads to significant reductions in suicide for transsexuals? This is GQ, after all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/53 "2014-04-25T21:14:48Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I think it was a bad idea for Manning to identify as female. CM is already short, a pariah and rather effeminate, publicly identifying as female would just make CM more attractive to rapists. Manning presumably had as much choice in picking her gender as she had in picking her height. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/54 "2014-04-25T21:16:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Already answered. There is no evidence of any change in suicide rates, and post-op transsexuals are at higher risk of suicide than the general public - SRS does not cure the tendency IOW. Not answered. You are again comparing post-op SRS against the general public, not pre-op SRS. > [@](#): > > Or perhaps they committed suicide. Or perhaps you are trying to hand-wave. > Only if you consider unsupported opinion to be superior to scientific study. It’s no more of a handwave than the researcher who assumed they dropped out because of dissatisfaction is my point. > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you the same thing - do you have cites to valid studies that show that SRS leads to significant reductions in suicide for transsexuals? This is GQ, after all. [It’s clear you’re not actually paying attention anyway, so I don’t know why I’m wasting my time.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15394384&postcount=26) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/55 "2014-04-25T21:42:13Z")
I think the best probable solution for Manning is that she’ll be placed in segregation. Though if she wants to commit suicide, requesting being put in the general population would be a good way for her to get dead. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/56 "2014-04-25T22:18:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Already answered. There is no evidence of any change in suicide rates, and post-op transsexuals are at higher risk of suicide than the general public - SRS does not cure the tendency IOW. Any study that loses track of half or more of study participants isn’t valid in my eyes. Throw those out and the literature is pitifully small. Bottom line, not enough valid research has been done to answer the question. The fact that post-SRS transsexuals have a higher rate of psychiatric problems is irrelevant to the question of whether or not SRS helps transsexuals. In that case the relevant question is comparing pre- and post-psychiatric rates and severity. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/57 "2014-04-25T22:22:29Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Not answered. You are again comparing post-op SRS against the general public, not pre-op SRS. No, that has been answered. > [@](#): > > There is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals, with many people remaining severely distressed and even suicidal after the operation, according to a medical review conducted exclusively for Guardian Weekend tomorrow. See how that’s an answer? There is no conclusive evidence that sex change surgery improves the lives of transsexuals. That means that there is no conclusive evidence that it reduces suicide attempts. Because a reduction in suicide rates would be an improvement in the lives of post-op transsexuals, and there is no conclusive evidence that this occurs. And I read **Una** ’s post the first time she wrote it. If you had done so, you would note that there is no mention of any studies that showed that SRS brought about a reduction in suicides among post-op transsexuals. And **Una** also says quite clearly - > [@](#): > > Cecil is responsible for the Straight Dope, and as such he needs harder evidence to draw the conclusion that hormones/SRS are beneficial for transsexuals. Long-term changes due to hormones, the social crises which arise during most (if not all) real-life presentation transitions, and SRS, are all so serious life-changing measures that my understanding is that he feels we need better studies before we can conclusively say it works. There is no smoking gun which says they do not work and do not improve the lives of transsexuals, but lack of a negative is not proof of a positive. and goes on to say > [@](#): > > I however am a heavily biased researcher on this subject. and the post is based pretty much entirely on negative evidence, and anecdote from a heavily biased researcher. IOW what I said is exactly correct, and you have produced zero evidence to refute it. And therefore, I will repeat - do you have cites for valid studies that show that SRS reduces suicide in post-op transsexuals? Cites and valid studies - not hand-waving, not moving the goalposts - actual, cited facts. This is GQ. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/58 "2014-04-25T22:24:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Bottom line, not enough valid research has been done to answer the question. In that case, you will agree that there is no conclusive evidence that SRS reduces the suicide rate among post-op transsexuals. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/59 "2014-04-25T23:15:10Z")
There is no way to say it does or doesn’t. Anecdotally there are a lot of claims it benefits such people but as we all know the plural anecdote does not automatically mean data. You say there is no conclusive evidence it benefits transsexuals I say there is no conclusive evidence it doesn’t benefit them. Half empty vs. half full, but how you state the situation can say a lot about your own bias in the matter. The overwhelming majority of transsexuals I have personally communicated with who have undergone SRS tell me it was the best thing for them and their lives did seem to improve markedly afterwards despite some very real hardships. However, “transsexuals I have personally communicated with” is in no way a scientific sampling. My personal experiences incline me to think it is beneficial, but that is not a scientific conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/60 "2014-04-26T01:04:50Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I think the best probable solution for Manning is that she’ll be placed in segregation. Though if she wants to commit suicide, requesting being put in the general population would be a good way for her to get dead. I thought you were aware (not from personal experience, of course) of the differences in a civilian and a military prison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785.md?page=4)