# Why does Chelsea Manning need a judge's approval for a name change? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 23, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785 "2014-04-23T16:55:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/61 "2014-04-26T06:23:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And therefore, I will repeat - do you have cites for valid studies that show that SRS reduces suicide in post-op transsexuals? Cites and valid studies - not hand-waving, not moving the goalposts - actual, cited facts. You continue to not understand. I do not find the conclusions you cite to be convincing. I do not see strong methodologies. I see objections that have not been satisfactorily accounted for nor rebutted. You have still not provided any evidence that a post SRS is more likely to commit suicide than a pre-SRS. You have not brought anything stronger to the table, merely people who happen to say the things you agree with. Since we have actual transsexuals on records saying SRS was beneficial for them, until and unless stronger evidence for your hypothesis arrives, I cannot in good ethical conscience reject SRS as a treatment option. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/62 "2014-04-26T06:44:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Namkcalb](#): > > > > I think it was a bad idea for Manning to identify as female. > > If Manning is a transsexual this isn’t a matter of choice. > > Well, OK - then the choice is to lie for 30 years about what Manning is, likely miserable the whole time (and untransitioned transsexuals have _appalling_ rates of suicide) while being, as you note, small and effeminate and “attractive” to exactly the wrong sort of brute, or say something and _maybe_ get either segregated inceration with the other vulnerable prisoners (homosexuals, elderly, disabled - those most likely to be victims and least likely to be able to victimize others) or, if REALLY lucky, transition and wind up in a female prison where Manning is far less likely to be physically victimized. I should have wrote “publicly identify”. Thinking about it, you are right, it might help him get seperated away from the general population. Slight hijack, but why are homosexuals segregated from the general population. I doubt they are significantly more rapey then situational-bisexual thugs. Prison rape is about sexual release and domination, not homoerotic love. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/63 "2014-04-26T10:40:21Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Slight hijack, but why are homosexuals segregated from the general population. I doubt they are significantly more rapey then situational-bisexual thugs. Prison rape is about sexual release and domination, not homoerotic love. A “bear”, big, burly, and conventionally masculine in most ways may not be automatically segregated, the biggest concern is with the effeminate homosexuals who are seen as outsiders and targeted for being different and weak. It’s not that such homosexuals are more “rapey”, it’s that they’re more likely to be victims of rape. Likewise, any prisoner less able to defend himself, hence the elderly and disabled being segregated as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/64 "2014-04-26T11:04:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, you did, because it was pointed out to you the last time you used the Manning case to indulge in a bit of tranny-bashing, too. I’m not here to “tranny-bash”. (BTW, isn’t “tranny” considered to be a slur these days? [Jayne County apparently got temp-banned from Facebook for talking about herself that way.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/jayne-county-transgender_n_5169324.html)) I’ll grant that there are things about transgenderism that don’t make sense to me and come off as counter-intuitive to me. That’s my personal failing, not the failing of transgendered people. I don’t hate Manning for being transgendered. I hate Manning for being a traitor to this country and I hate Manning for playing gender politics for sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/65 "2014-04-26T11:39:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You continue to not understand. No, I understand perfectly. There is no convincing evidence that SRS improves the lives of transsexuals in any objective way. This is a highly politically incorrect conclusion. In a conflict between political correctness and facts, some people choose political correctness… > [@](#): > > You have still not provided any evidence that a post SRS is more likely to commit suicide than a pre-SRS. I don’t usually provide evidence for statements I have not made. > [@](#): > > You have not brought anything stronger to the table, merely people who happen to say the things you agree with. This, of course, is quite straightforwardly false. I’m the one citing actual studies, and reviews of studies, and you are the one citing unsupported opinions from those who think, without evidence, that SRS works in any objective sense. > [@](#): > > Since we have actual transsexuals on records saying SRS was beneficial for them, until and unless stronger evidence for your hypothesis arrives, I cannot in good ethical conscience reject SRS as a treatment option. The eternal refuge of quack medicine - testimonials outweigh science. “There’s no evidence that coffee enemas cure cancer, but actual cancer patients say it was beneficial for them, so we cannot reject coffee enemas as a treatment option!” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/66 "2014-04-26T13:26:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth). > > [Cite](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885). > > Any cites you would like to share about suicide rates for post-SRS transsexuals? > > Regards, > Shodan You seem to have a very odd fixation on this, and weren’t you the one I caught misinterpreting the 2011 report? That time in the “Comments” thread? Would you like to explain why you cherry-picked those papers, and didn’t do a broad review? [Like I did when I did this review?](http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/) > [@](#): > > There is no convincing evidence that SRS improves the lives of transsexuals in any objective way. This is a highly politically incorrect conclusion. In a conflict between political correctness and facts, some people choose political correctness… See citation above. Suicide rates are not the sole metric by which any course of treatment should be determined, as my citation above says. Improving quality of life is very important for transsexuals and it is largely subjective - by definition a large portion of our quality of life is **how we actually feel about life.** ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/67 "2014-04-26T13:34:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You seem to have a very odd fixation on this, and weren’t you the one I caught misinterpreting the 2011 report? That time in the “Comments” thread? I cannot find any such post, so I withdraw the question. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/68 "2014-04-26T13:56:28Z")
Actually, I found it: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15265182&postcount=245](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15265182&postcount=245) > [@](#): > > All I have been able to find is this (pdf) - > > > [@](#): > > > > Those who have medically transitioned (45%) and surgically transitioned (43%) have higher rates of attempted suicide than those who have not (34% and 39% respectively). > > and the study is not very rigorous, despite the source. The mistake you made with that study is that the original poll question did not specify whether the suicide attempts were **before** or **after** surgery. Your quote from page 82 is based on the result of the question asked on page 217: > [@](#): > > 1. Have you ever attempted suicide? ������ Yes ������ No and that is the **only** place in the poll where the question is asked. Occam’s Razor seems to say that all this indicates that those who have severe gender dysphoria - severe enough to seek out SRS - have a higher risk of suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/69 "2014-04-26T13:56:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I thought you were aware (not from personal experience, of course) of the differences in a civilian and a military prison. No, I’m not aware of the differences. I’ve been to neither. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/70 "2014-04-26T14:19:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And therefore, I will repeat - do you have cites for valid studies that show that SRS reduces suicide in post-op transsexuals? Cites and valid studies - not hand-waving, not moving the goalposts - actual, cited facts. > > This is GQ. Let’s talk about cites - one that you have used several times on this subject, from your posting history. I contacted the Guardian last year to ask them for their bibliography of the 100 studies. They referred me to someone at the University of Birmingham who carried out this study - it went to a dead e-mail address. When I contacted the Guardian a second time, and a third time, telling them this they didn’t reply to me. I also sent mail to Chris Hyde, who was cited in the Guardian’s page, and received no reply (I couldn’t verify conclusively that they still worked there; one web page said they did, another said they had left). So I searched Google Scholar specifically for this study, and have come up with nothing - no trace of its existence. Perhaps it’s not valid of you to continue to report a “study” from the Guardian where there appears to have been no paper published, no peer review as far as we can tell, no other transgender researcher (including practicing physicians and psychiatrists) who I know can find the details of it, and where the bibliography, study methods and criteria, sources of error, etc. don’t seem to be publicly available? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/71 "2014-04-26T17:09:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not here to “tranny-bash”. Of course you aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/72 "2014-04-26T17:50:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I hate Manning and I hate the way Manning is trying to milk gender politics for sympathy and distract people from the reason he’s in prison in the first place, and I find the sudden timing of his declaration that he’s trans right after his conviction to be suspect when up to that point he’d been claming to be a male homosexual. This is an interesting study in perspective. Personally, I think Manning’s status as an American hero and unjustly confined political prisoner is being tainted for the same reasons you state. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/73 "2014-04-27T01:27:31Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Half empty vs. half full, but how you state the situation can say a lot about your own bias in the matter. This is the the exact thing about all the **Shodan** posts on this subject. > [@](#): > > The overwhelming majority of transsexuals I have personally communicated with who have undergone SRS tell me it was the best thing for them and their lives did seem to improve markedly afterwards despite some very real hardships. Absolutely. It was not just the best thing for me. It was the only thing. The alternative would have been death. It was the only thing that could make life livable. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785/74 "2014-05-28T01:12:38Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I know preop transwomen are classed as male by the Thai penal system. They get a lot of attention both positive and negative. I believe it’s not just the penal system. Thais are permanently classified on their national ID cards and in their passports as whichever gender they’re born as. This has caused some headaches for some when traveling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-chelsea-manning-need-a-judges-approval-for-a-name-change/686785.md?page=3)