# Why does Christianity not play much of a role in the Middle East **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466 "2012-11-19T01:54:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/41 "2012-11-19T15:49:16Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Note that this was i) In Yemen not Hejaz which is where Islam came into being and ii) Was nearly a century before Muhammads time. Huh? So what? My point was not that there were Jewish kingdoms when Mohammed was around, but that there were Jewish kindgdoms: (1) after the Roman Diaspora; and (2) before 1948. Thus, as I said, it “isn’t _entirely_ true” that: > [@](#): > > The Romans completely evicted the Jews from Palestine by about 160AD. > > From then until the 20th contury the Jews nowhere lived in concentrations > large enough in the Middle East to contest sovereignty with either Christians, > or with Muslims who almost completely replaced the Christians ca.650AD &ff. … because there _were_ Jewish kingdoms in Arabia during that time; the last was destroyed by the Christians. After that time, there were powerful Jewish tribes and some cities mostly dominated by Jews, and some of there tribes fought against Mohammed (and lost). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/42 "2012-11-19T21:47:18Z")
Both Christianity and Islam rolled over paganism wherever they found it. They both hit a wall when they hit the east Asian religions of Hinduism/Buddhism. Though admittedly Islam had somewhat greater success in that regard. What happens when Christianity and Islam go head to head? If I understand John Mace’s argument, nationalism (or rather regionalism) triumphs. Christianity won in the West because both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox were European centered. Islam displaced Christianity in the Mid-east because it was native to the region. There are exceptions to this pattern, notably Islam in Spain and Christian communities throughout the Mideast. So if the Vatican was transferred to Jerusalem in 500CE, Islam may not have made such inroads, according to this view. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/43 "2012-11-19T22:24:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Huh? So what? My point was not that there were Jewish kingdoms when Mohammed was around, but that there were Jewish kindgdoms: (1) after the Roman Diaspora; and (2) before 1948. > > Thus, as I said, it “isn’t _entirely_ true” that: > > … because there _were_ Jewish kingdoms in Arabia during that time; the last was destroyed by the Christians. > > After that time, there were powerful Jewish tribes and some cities mostly dominated by Jews, and some of there tribes fought against Mohammed (and lost). Thank you for the interesting information. I was aware what is now Yemen was inhabited by advanced political societies for several centuries, and prior to both Christain and Muslim eras, but not that one of those societies was for about a century truly Jewish, a new discovery according to your second link. However, I am not sure SW Arabia ought be considered part of the ME, since it was 1000 miles distant and not contiguous with any ME political power. Even if it were, the gist of my post was true, namely that the ME post-diaspora Jews were too few and too scattered to contest soveregnty with Christians or Muslims (or pre-Muslim Zoroastrian Iranians). The Himarites might have been the sole exception as a challenge to Christians; they were overthrown 85 years before Mohammed’s first vision. Besides the Himarites, the only pre-modern, post-diaspora Jewish state anywhere that I have ever heard of were the Khazaks of the Pontic steppe closer to the ME than the Himaraites, but separted from the ME by the Caucasus mountains and the Black Sea. This Jewish kingdom apparently was ground between European Christian and Turkish Muslim and disappeared. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/44 "2012-11-20T01:36:33Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So no, Christianity isn’t everywhere… But it’s in a shitload of places. Yet not the place where the religion first started! I find this interesting. Don’t you? Last time I was in Rome it was still there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/45 "2012-11-20T18:03:27Z")
[_sigh_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity) > [@](#): > > Christianity was founded in the 1st century in the Levant region of the Middle East by Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 16:18), who is prophesied in the Old Testament (Micah 5:2-5) to be the Christ or chosen one of God. > > Christianity spread initially from Jerusalem throughout the Near East, into places such as Syria, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, Asia Minor, Jordan and Egypt. In the 4th century it was successively adopted as the state religion by Armenia in 301, Georgia in 319, the Aksumite Empire in 325, and the Roman Empire in 380. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/46 "2012-11-20T18:43:04Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [_sigh_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity) Look, this is not particularly complicated. The ME was eventually entirely conquered by the emergent forces of a newly revealed Abrahamic religion. Though said religion was not initially universalist ( or at least was not held to be by Muhammad’s immediate successors ), it quickly became so. Over time as the faith of the new dominant class it gradually replaced Christianity amongst the great majority of the local population. People converted - sometimes under threat of persecution, sometimes out of simple self-interest, sometimes through real converted zeal. It then propagated down to their descendants. So Christianity is now a minority faith in the land of its birth. As noted this is not unique. I’m not really understanding what the debate is here. Do you just want more details as to why and how this happened? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/47 "2012-11-21T02:09:14Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m not really understanding what the debate is here. Do you just want more details as to why and how this happened? Yes, please. It’s a puzzle why Buddhism was beaten back by Hinduism in India, while being fecund enough to spread to Nepal, China, Japan, etc. Similarly, it’s odd that Islam trounced Christianity in Egypt and Turkey, but not Spain. Are these religions best seen as ideologies that happen to underpin particular states, states which perform better or worse in the art of conquest? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/48 "2012-11-21T02:21:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > See post #3 in this thread. …Which gives a only a very brief mention, and nothing more. And makes a somewhat diametric point. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > It’s a puzzle why Buddhism was beaten back by Hinduism in India, while being fecund enough to spread to Nepal, China, Japan, etc. Similarly, it’s odd that Islam trounced Christianity in Egypt and Turkey, but not Spain. Are these religions best seen as ideologies that happen to underpin particular states, states which perform better or worse in the art of conquest? It’s not always the case that the conquered adopted their conquerors’ religion. The Mongols practiced old religions like Tengriism, but at different periods in different places with different hordes, they adopted Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. And you can’t really say they were known for their defeats. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/49 "2012-11-21T02:28:03Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > That doesn’t really change my point: The birthplace of Christianity - the birthplace of Christ Himself - is barely at all Christian. That seems interesting to me especially with the prevalence of Christianity in many, many other places quite far from where Jesus walked the earth. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Buddha was Indian. And yet only about 5% of Indians are Buddhist, while large majorities of many countries east of India are Buddhists. This is what I was going to say. > [@AK84](#): > > Nepalese actually and as stated, you have the Sassanids to thank for that. For the time period we’re talking about, it’s arguable whether “Nepalese” is a distinct category compared to “Indian.” There was neither an “India” nor a “Nepal” in nation-state form. And the culture and society of the place and people of Siddharta Gautam’s birth was part of a continuum with the rest of the places and peoples of the subcontinent. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/50 "2012-11-21T02:37:56Z")
The split between the Catholic church and the Orthodox church has to shoulder a big chunk of the blame. Constantinople and the Byzantine empire was fatally wounded when it was captured by Christian crusaders during the 4th crusade. It never really recovered, all of Turkey and significant chunks of the levant might still be majority christian if it wasn’t for the fact that the Catholic church treated Eastern Orthodoxy as just as heretical as islam was seen at the time. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/51 "2012-11-21T03:04:50Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Constantinople and the Byzantine empire was fatally wounded when it was captured by Christian crusaders during the 4th crusade. It never really recovered, all of Turkey and significant chunks of the levant might still be majority christian if it wasn’t for the fact that the Catholic church treated Eastern Orthodoxy as just as heretical as islam was seen at the time. It’s been a long time since I’ve read my Villehardouin, but wasn’t it that religion would be a minor part of it, in favor of French and Venetians trying to get money? Also, as a major cause, restoring Isaac II so that he would give financial and religious patronage? I might be off, but it just seemed like one of the least religiously motivated Crusades. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/52 "2012-11-21T04:23:30Z")
Ok looks like you’re right, the pope tried in an ineffectual way to prevent attacks on christian cities including the Byzantine empire. But regardless the fatal blow to the Byzantine empire was struck by the Fourth crusade, it could have lasted much longer against the Ottoman empire if it wasn’t for that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/53 "2012-11-21T05:44:35Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . Similarly, it’s odd that Islam trounced Christianity in Egypt and Turkey, but not Spain. Islam did trounce Christianity in Spain. In Muslim Spain, the majority of the population was itself Muslim by the end of the 10th century. It wasn’t until the Reconquista and Muslims converting or fleeing, that Spain became Christian again. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/54 "2012-11-21T17:27:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Yes, please. > > …Similarly, it’s odd that Islam trounced Christianity in Egypt and Turkey, but not Spain. As noted the Muslims _did_ trounce Christian forces in Spain ;). I wrote up a [longish post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8698689&postcount=9) once about some of the factors underlying the early Arab successes. Unmentioned in that earlier post but also a factor, was superior military leadership. Though it is hard to untangle hagiography from history at this far of a remove, the Arabs really do seem to have benefited from having a exceptionally capable general or three. So in short the Arabs explosion happened at an exceptionally propitious time, with the local great powers exhausted and prostrate and at a time when they managed to produce the right combination of leadership. > [@](#): > > Are these religions best seen as ideologies that happen to underpin particular states, states which perform better or worse in the art of conquest? Not necessarily. As I noted in the post I linked to, there was certainly nothing inherently superior militarily about the early Arab state relative to their great power opponents - to the contrary, probably. You can point to _periods_ where certain states held a some degree of institutional superiority and advanced religion as an unintended byproduct ( or at least not a primary intention ) of expansion. The Ottomans in Europe from ~1400-~1600 perhaps. But in general there are enough examples of aggressive and successful states of almost every major religion to probably rule out any notion of a particular ideology as being the key factor to winning wars. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/55 "2012-11-22T03:31:27Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > [_sigh_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity) > [@](#): > > Christianity was founded in the 1st century in the Levant region of the Middle East by Jesus of Nazareth (Matthew 16:18), who is prophesied in the Old Testament (Micah 5:2-5) to be the Christ or chosen one of God. It’s kind of silly to say that Jesus founded Christianity. While he was alive the central definer of Christianity, the resurrection, had not yet happened. It took many years for things like the Trinity, the virgin birth, Jesus as son of God, and the resurrection to come together to form what we now called Christianity. Early followers of Christ saw themselves as Jews rather than as “Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/56 "2012-11-22T03:55:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Palestinian Christians would certainly disagree. > > When they join in the fight, they generally side with the Muslims as Leila Khaled, George Habash and plenty of other PFLP figures can attest. Don’t leave out Edward Said! Arab nationalism was (at first) invented and promoted by 19th-century Christians like Ibrahim al-Yaziji. That was in the context of Christian opposition in Syria to the Ottoman Empire’s rule over Arab lands. The Ba‘ath Party\* was founded by Christian Michel ‘Aflaq. Arabic literature in the early 20th century was revitalized by the _Mahjar_, the expatriate poets and writers who went to the Americas, the most famous of them being Khalil Gibran, whose religious conflicts were with his own church, and AFAIK he didn’t bother much about Jews and Muslims. \*_Ba‘th_ literally meaning ‘Resurrection’ ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466/57 "2012-11-22T17:53:16Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > However, I am not sure SW Arabia ought be considered part of the ME, > since it was 1000 miles distant and not contiguous with any ME political > power. All of Arabia is in the Middle East by definition. Let us have no more of this folly. > [@](#): > > Besides the Himarites, the only pre-modern, post-diaspora Jewish state > anywhere that I have ever heard of were the Khazaks of the Pontic steppe > closer to the ME than the Himaraites, but separted from the ME by the > Caucasus mountains and the Black Sea. That’s Ḥimyar, not Ḥimar. _Ḥimār_ is Arabic for ‘ass’. It would be a faux pas to call them that. That’s Khazar, not “Khazak.” Were you thinking of Kazakhstan? Modern western Kazakhstan overlaps part of what was eastern Khazaria 1,000 years back, but otherwise they have nothing to do with each other. They both speak Turkic languages, but Kazakh belongs to the main body of Turkic, while the Khazar language came from the highly divergent branch called r-Turkic, whose only living member today is Chuvash, spoken in Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christianity-not-play-much-of-a-role-in-the-middle-east/641466.md?page=2)