# Why does Christmas have to be inclusive?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 11, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622 "2007-12-11T16:49:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/41 "2007-12-11T21:12:00Z")
Sorry, the connection is a tad too slow today, went over the edit window. I’m from Spain, hence considering Santa as “that fat foreigner”.
This year the parish priest in some village down south has had some cloths with images of the Baby Jesus made, in a similar style as a Santa model that invaded the village last year. The people purchasing them kept talking about “it’s our tradition”, not about the religious side - the priest himself said he wasn’t trying to start any anti-paganism crusade, just provide an alternative to the santa stuff that seems to be the only thing you find in stores (you get Nativities, but things like lights don’t come in religious motifs).
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/42 "2007-12-11T21:18:10Z")
[QUOTE=Nava]
I would find it unusual, since it’s not customary.
And the 12 days of Christmas… never heard of that, but wouldn’t it lead directly to the feast of the Epiphany? AKA the Three Wise Kings Day, which is when those of us who aren’t on speaking terms with “that fat foreigner” give gifts.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you all call it something different, but here the “12 days of Christmas” is a reference to the actual Christmas season, which does last from Christmas day until Epiphany. After Epiphany, the calendar goes back to Ordinary Time.
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### Author:  [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/43 "2007-12-11T21:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
That is so interesting…thank you for correcting me. I am Catholic, and have never heard of avoiding parties during Advent, even among the most religious people I know. Certainly, you are right that the 12 days of Christmas is the traditional season of Christmas celebration (vs.the Advent season), but I didn’t realize that anyone would consider it inappropriate to have a party during Advent.
Do you think your mother would hold Advent on par with Lent in terms of the level of solemnity?
[/QUOTE]
Here’s one [modern American Catholic look at Advent](http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Advent/faqs.asp):
> [@](#):
>
> Advent is a time of joyous anticipation, but also of penance and preparation for the great Christmas feast. The liturgical color of the season is purple, a sign of penance, which is also used during Lent. The Church discourages excessive ornamentation, boisterous music and even weddings during Advent, in order to foster a sense of quiet hope.
Lots of interesting stuff at the site.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/44 "2007-12-11T21:26:52Z")
Sorry, missed the edit window…
Now, traditionally, as **Anne Neville** and **Northern Piper** have pointed out, Advent is a penitential season, and Christmas (the 12 days) is a celebratory/joyful season. But I still maintain that Advent is not as solemn as Lent, and it’s not typical that people would find it inappropriate for someone to refer to the whole thing as a “joyful” season (although putting the “Christmas Season” BEFORE Christmas is certainly a secular/cultural thing, NOT a relgious thing).
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/45 "2007-12-11T21:30:08Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Here’s one [modern American Catholic look at Advent](http://www.americancatholic.org/Features/Advent/faqs.asp):
Lots of interesting stuff at the site.
[/QUOTE]
That is interesting, especially in light of the fact that a lot of churches seem to do a lot of decorating for Advent!
Maybe that term used “joyous anticipation” is the difference…I don’t think anyone would describe Lent that way. The only joyous anticipation you really get at that time is at the Easter Vigil mass, when you are waiting for the Resurrection to be celebrated.
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/46 "2007-12-11T21:38:09Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#):
>
> If we celebrate Christmas as a Congressionally-Approved General Purpose Winter Festival, with charming paganistic rites involving decorated evergreen trees and gift exchanges, we run the risk of being accused of hypocrisy–of being pointedly reminded that “Jesus is the Reason for the Season”–and here we go again with the “War on Christmas”.
Well those people are the ones who are wrong. (And how often do they “accuse” non-Christians of hypocrisy in the scenario you describe?)
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/47 "2007-12-11T21:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Maybe you all call it something different, but here the “12 days of Christmas” is a reference to the actual Christmas season, which does last from Christmas day until Epiphany. After Epiphany, the calendar goes back to Ordinary Time.
[/QUOTE]
40 days before Christmas, Adviento.
Then Nochebuena (Good Night), Christmas’ Eve. Christmas Day is Navidad. Boxing day is celebrated in some places due to being a “segundo día de Pascua”, second day of Pascua (Pascua includes Christmas Day, Easter Sunday and Pentecostes). The traditional days for gift giving vary by region, being either Christmas Day (gifts being brought by the Baby Jesus, the Shepherds or a coalmaker called Olentzero) or the Epiphany (gifts brought by the Kings).
Us secular folks refer to the whole season as “las navidades” (plural and small n), but it doesn’t refer to specific days. There are celebratory parts of the season which traditionally started around St Lucy’s (december 13th) but which have now mostly moved earlier, due to the “bridge weekend” we get for the december 6th and 8th holidays (it’s when people decorate their houses and put up the nativity).
The sundays which fall in what you’ve called the 12 days are Domingos de Navidad, again singular and capital N. But every time that the Epiphany falls on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday (turning the following Sunday into part of “las navidades”) I hear people leaving church surprised that we’re back into “tiempo ordinario.” There is probably some term equivalent to this “12 days of Christmas” but I just asked Mom and she’s never used anything but “las navidades” (daily Mass, teacher and whatnot, she’s more of a theologian than some of the parish priests we’ve been cursed with).
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/48 "2007-12-11T21:54:28Z")
[QUOTE=Nava]
40 days before Christmas, Adviento.
Then Nochebuena (Good Night), Christmas’ Eve. Christmas Day is Navidad. Boxing day is celebrated in some places due to being a “segundo día de Pascua”, second day of Pascua (Pascua includes Christmas Day, Easter Sunday and Pentecostes). The traditional days for gift giving vary by region, being either Christmas Day (gifts being brought by the Baby Jesus, the Shepherds or a coalmaker called Olentzero) or the Epiphany (gifts brought by the Kings).
Us secular folks refer to the whole season as “las navidades” (plural and small n), but it doesn’t refer to specific days. There are celebratory parts of the season which traditionally started around St Lucy’s (december 13th) but which have now mostly moved earlier, due to the “bridge weekend” we get for the december 6th and 8th holidays (it’s when people decorate their houses and put up the nativity).
The sundays which fall in this period are Domingos de Navidad, singular and again with the big N. But you have to come to a house like mine to find someone who knows this…
[/QUOTE]
That’s about the same as it is here…of course, the Liturgical Calendar is the same everywhere, just with some days celebrated differently based on cultural tradition. But generally speaking, for short the whole thing is just called the “Christmas Season,” and I would say that traditionally it starts here in the US the day after Thanksgiving (late November) and lasts until New Year’s Eve. I say traditionally because the stores start putting Christmas stuff up in September these days, but that’s another story! 🙂
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### Author:  [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/49 "2007-12-11T21:57:21Z")
I see all the varying statements about what is which day of what, and I’m thinking to myself, “Wow, traditions vary from place to place. Clearly if there was ever one rule for which days are what, it’s long gone now.”
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/50 "2007-12-11T22:24:39Z")
[QUOTE=Dob]
I can’t speak for everyone, but I would think anyone who works in an office environment has been told to keep things at this time of year to non specific holiday wishes. And when is the last time you saw a Merry Christmas sign in a store?
[/QUOTE]
About two hours ago, when I went to lunch, in the window of the cafe where I got a sandwich. Big Christmas tree there, too. They had to remove a couple tables to make room for it. To get to the cafe, I had to walk through the lobby of my office, which also had a big Christmas tree, and the windows were covered with Christmas-themed window paintings.
Of course, I live in the San Francisco Bay area, which is a well known hotbed of covervative Christianity. Maybe it’s different in the more liberal parts of the country, like Virginia.
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### Author:  [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)
#### Post date: [December 11, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/51 "2007-12-11T23:01:19Z")
[QUOTE=Miller]
About two hours ago, when I went to lunch, in the window of the cafe where I got a sandwich. Big Christmas tree there, too. They had to remove a couple tables to make room for it. To get to the cafe, I had to walk through the lobby of my office, which also had a big Christmas tree, and the windows were covered with Christmas-themed window paintings.
Of course, I live in the San Francisco Bay area, which is a well known hotbed of covervative Christianity. Maybe it’s different in the more liberal parts of the country, like Virginia.
[/QUOTE]
Well, now we have anecdotal reports from San Francisco, Portland, and Boulder. I’m beginning to see a pattern here…
We in Boulder also have a huge celebration where kids sing Christmas carols and they light the big star on Flagstaff Mountain overlooking the city.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/52 "2007-12-12T14:25:04Z")
Here’s how (some) Christians work to make Christmas inclusive:
[http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/933597.html](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/933597.html)
> [@](#):
>
> On Friday, Four Jewish subway riders who wished other people Happy Hanukkah were pelted with anti-Semitic remarks before being beaten, New York police and prosecutors said.
>
> The incident was being investigated as a possible hate crime.
>
> The four were on a train in Manhattan on Friday night, during the eight-day Jewish Festival of Lights, when they were approached by a group of 10 people who offered holiday greetings. The victims responded, Happy Hanukkah and were assaulted by the larger group, police said Tuesday.
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### Author:  [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/53 "2007-12-12T15:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
That’s about the same as it is here…of course, the Liturgical Calendar is the same everywhere, just with some days celebrated differently based on cultural tradition. But generally speaking, for short the whole thing is just called the “Christmas Season,” and I would say that traditionally it starts here in the US the day after Thanksgiving (late November) and lasts until New Year’s Eve. I say traditionally because the stores start putting Christmas stuff up in September these days, but that’s another story! 🙂
[/QUOTE]
People in my neighborhood decorate heavily–there’s even a special night when streets are closed so people can stroll about, appreciate the lights & listen to carols. (Or rock & roll bands, bell ringers or balaika groups.)
Some former neighbors came from Louisiana. They had a statue of Our Lady in the front garden all year long. Their Christmas decorations varied from a nativity set through Santa Alligators to a big honking peace sign. But they kept the decorations up until Epiphany. At which time they hung the Mardi Gras flag.
(The US is hardly monolithic.)
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/54 "2007-12-12T15:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
Here’s how (some) Christians work to make Christmas inclusive:
[http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/933597.html](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/933597.html)
[/QUOTE]
Anything in the story indicating these people are professed Christians?
I read instead that one of the attackers in fact has a Jewish mother.
Try again.
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### Author:  [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/55 "2007-12-12T15:35:44Z")
[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
People in my neighborhood decorate heavily–there’s even a special night when streets are closed so people can stroll about, appreciate the lights & listen to carols. (Or rock & roll bands, bell ringers or balaika groups.)
Some former neighbors came from Louisiana. They had a statue of Our Lady in the front garden all year long. Their Christmas decorations varied from a nativity set through Santa Alligators to a big honking peace sign. But they kept the decorations up until Epiphany. At which time they hung the Mardi Gras flag.
(The US is hardly monolithic.)
[/QUOTE]
Well, of course it isn’t. I’m speaking in generalities. In Catholic neighborhoods, you see different things than in other neighborhoods, and different ethnic groups have different traditions. I was just trying to differentiate the cultural celebration of “Christmastime” from the religious observances that are traditional during the Advent season and the Christmas season.
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### Author:  [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/56 "2007-12-12T15:55:26Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I’ve got a rather cynical explanation. The retailers want people who have no interest in the religious aspects of Christmas to nevertheless participate in celebrating it, particularly in the gift-giving part of it. They make money from that. It’s very much in their interest to have people who are not comfortable with the religious side of Christmas be included. …
[/QUOTE]
The “Keep the $ in Chri$tma$” front in the “War on Christmas™”?
CMC +fnord!
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/57 "2007-12-12T16:53:31Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Anything in the story indicating these people are professed Christians?
I read instead that one of the attackers in fact has a Jewish mother.
Try again.
[/QUOTE]
You’re absolutely right. The story only said that the group was offering holiday greetings before they flipped out on the Jewish people for wishing them a Happy Hannukah. I only presumed that a group of people who express holiday greetings and then flip out and attack another group for expressing different holiday greetings would probably be Christians. I certainly could be very wrong… oh wait, what’s this?
> **[Muslim Aids Jews Attacked On N.Y. Subway](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/muslim-aids-jews-attacked-on-ny-subway/?index=1)**
>
> Thugs Beat Jewish Group Who Wished Them A "Happy Chanukah"; Student Comes To Their Aid
> [@](#):
>
> The altercation erupted when Adler and his friends said “Happy Chanukah” to a group yelling “Merry Christmas” on the Brooklyn-bound train.
>
> Adler told the New York Post that one of his attackers rolled up his sleeve to display a tattoo of Jesus Christ.
>
> “Happy Chanukah. That’s when the Jews killed Jesus,” the attacker told Adler.
>
> The 20-year-old Askari, who suffered two black eyes, said he tried to fight off the 10 attackers, giving Adler a chance to summon police by pulling an emergency brake.
>
> “I did what I thought was right,” said Askari, a student at Berkeley College in Manhattan, who was allegedly punched and beaten. “I did the best that I could to help.”
So, they may not have been Christian. The article is still not specific. It only says that they were yelling Merry Christmas before they started assaulting the Jews and the Muslim guy who came to the Jews defense. One of them had a tattoo of Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that he was a Christian.
Okay, enough sarcasm. I think it is generally safe to assume that in America, if someone is flipping out because their holiday greeting wasn’t entirely exactly agreed with, that person is probably a Christian (see, e.g., Bill O’Reilly and the War on Christmas).
One nice thing is that they demonstrated that a Muslim man may in fact sacrifice himself to aide Jews.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/58 "2007-12-12T17:09:02Z")
I don’t accept the OP’s premise. there is no campaign to make Christmas “inclusive.” There is some effort by commercial retailers not to exclude non-practitioners from feeling welcome at their businesses, but the intent is to include them _in the stores_, not in Christmas.
I don’t get why Christian religionists have gotten the idea lately that they are somehow entitled to have their specific religion pandered to by private businesses exercising their own freedom of expression. There is certainly no public pressure on the businesses NOT to use the word Christmas (and most of them still do anyway, despite what Fox News tells you). Some businesses have tried to be more general because they want to sell more stuff. The only pressure they get is from Christian groups who believe they have the right to bully and browbeat other private citizens and businesss into saying the word “Christ.”
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/59 "2007-12-12T17:31:39Z")
If the OP question is regarding the government’s observance of the holiday, then it’s clear the answer is that the government must not play favorites with religion.
If the question is about why stores tell employees to wish customers “happy holidays,” then the answer is that a store doesn’t make money by making 20% of their customers feel unwelcome.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [December 12, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-christmas-have-to-be-inclusive/429622/60 "2007-12-12T17:36:52Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The only pressure they get is from Christian groups who believe they have the right to bully and browbeat other private citizens and businesss into saying the word “Christ.”
[/QUOTE]
This is what I’ve been saying in regards to the actual question being “Why does Christmas have to be inclusive?” In other words, why does everyone have to be included in Christmas by doing things such as stamping out “Happy Holidays” in favor of “Merry Christmas” or stamping out people who offer a “Happy Hannukah” on the subway?
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