# Why Does Congress Pussyfoot Around With Trump's Taxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646 "2019-05-08T01:10:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/21 "2019-05-08T21:55:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. > > You know, I thought that in America you had the principle of presumption of innocence. Or doesn’t that apply to people with an R after their name? > > Tell me, have all the Democrat Senators and Representatives released their tax returns? If not, why not? > > The view from 4000 miles away is that they’re just playing politics, keeping the issue bubbling. They don’t want push to come to shove. It’s win-win for them as they keep the issue bubbling and they follow the adage of never stopping your opponent when he’s making a mistake. Quite clever, really. No, not just me. [Hundreds, HUNDREDS of former prosecutors.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-news-mueller-report-obstruction-felony-charges-illegal-a8902006.html) From both parties. Appointed by presidents going back decades. Not just me. The Mueller Report. Not the Barr memo that “totally exonerated him”. The actual report, which did NOT. But hey - let’s pretend this is “just my opinion, some dude on the internet”. Good arguing tactic there. Have senators EVER released tax returns? No. But presidents have. For decades. But not our special Mr. Trump. Oh no. Dear Leader does not do that. Dear Leader does whatever he wants. Dear Leader has nothing to hide, so you can’t see anything. Sure, the “view from 4000 miles away.” This is also known as “the view by people who are not in full grasp of the facts, and get their news from memes on the internet” It’s the view from the uneducated, the ill-informed and authoritarians who love Dear Leader. And now we have a case where Dear Leader Trump has claimed executive privilege into a report about HIS OWN CONDUCT, and his instructing HIS OWN APPOINTEE to refuse to cooperate with Congress. Dear Leader Trump is innocent, so you can’t see the investigation - just trust the guy Trump hired to spike the investigation. Jesus. You are actually defending this. Actually. Wow. Presumption of Innocence? Really? So this now involves burying the investigation, and refusing to release details to congress? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/22 "2019-05-08T21:58:11Z")
Dude with crack pipe to cop: “Hey, I"m entitled to presumption of innocence, so you are not allowed to give your report to the DA!” ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/23 "2019-05-08T22:02:11Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. > > You know, I thought that in America you had the principle of presumption of innocence. Or doesn’t that apply to people with an R after their name? Based on the low bar set by the crowd who chanted “lock her up” about a woman who has still never been charged with a thing, calling Trump a criminal based on what we know about him is the mildest of accustaions. > [@bobot](#): > > That kicks in once you’ve been arrested and charged with a crime. Let’s go there! Yes, let’s! Anyone other than a sitting president who committed the acts detailed in the Mueller report would have been hit with a dozen indictments already. I would pay good money to watch Individual #1 take the stand to defend his presumed innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/24 "2019-05-08T22:07:35Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Jesus. You are actually defending this. Actually. Wow. You did read my whole post, didn’t you? Anyway, a quick search would have shown you that I have a thing about presumption of innocence that long pre-dates Trump. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/25 "2019-05-08T22:26:45Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. > > You know, I thought that in America you had the principle of presumption of innocence. Or doesn’t that apply to people with an R after their name? As has been pointed out… in this thread… Michael Cohen also said so. Trump’s own lawyer told congress to pull his tax returns to find evidence of criminal acts. I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t actually, you know, follow up on that bombshell of a tip. Can you explain why they should ignore Michael Cohen? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/26 "2019-05-08T22:31:22Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … Can you explain why they should ignore Michael Cohen? Well, for starters, the guy is currently in prison for lying. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/27 "2019-05-08T22:35:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, for starters, the guy is currently in prison for lying. Right, if only there were some way congress could find out if he’s lying… maybe by pulling Trump’s tax returns to see if they confirm what Cohen said. This is a truly baffling defense of Trump here. Presumption of innocence does not mean people can’t be investigated, and someone being a criminal has never precluded police or investigators from even \*considering \*the information they give. The world where congress can’t follow up on a tip from Cohen because of either “presumption of innocence” or “Cohen lied in the past” is not not the actual world we live in. Those are not the rules we operate under. It’s a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/28 "2019-05-08T22:45:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Right, if only there were some way congress could find out if he’s lying… maybe by pulling Trump’s tax returns to see if they confirm what Cohen said. > This is a truly baffling defense of Trump here. Presumption of innocence does not mean people can’t be investigated, and someone being a criminal has never precluded police or investigators from even \*considering \*the information they give. The world where congress can’t follow up on a tip from Cohen because of either “presumption of innocence” or “Cohen lied in the past” is not not the actual world we live in. Those are not the rules we operate under. It’s a non-starter. Exactly right. Some here seem to think that “presumption of innocence” means “you can’t investigate me”, or “after the investigation, you have to ignore the report, and only listen to my lawyer”, or “I’m allowed to have my people lie during the investigation ,and that’s OK” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/29 "2019-05-08T23:19:17Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Exactly right. Exactly wrong. As usual, you, like others, are failing to distinguish between defending Trump - which I am not - and pointing out a stupid and flawed attack. Contrast my comments on your post with my analysis of what the actual politicians are doing. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/30 "2019-05-08T23:27:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > pointing out a stupid and flawed attack. It’s only a stupid and flawed attack if you’re a biased and willfully ignorant hack. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/31 "2019-05-08T23:34:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Exactly wrong. As usual, you, like others, are failing to distinguish between defending Trump - which I am not - and pointing out a stupid and flawed attack. Contrast my comments on your post with my analysis of what the actual politicians are doing. Perhaps the ongoing investigations and requests for tax returns are nothing but “a stupid and flawed attack.” (I disagree, but let’s just say.) What does presumption of innocence have to do with it? If presumption of innocence shielded politicians from stupid and flawed attacks, we’d have to pretty much erase the entirety of U.S. history. Or, if your argument is that presumption of innocence is what \*makes \*these investigations nothing but “a stupid and flawed attack,” that also makes no sense. As \*\*steronz \*\*pointed out, if presumption of innocence meant people couldn’t be investigated, you’d never convict anybody. Trump isn’t afforded the presumption of innocence until he’s actually been charged with something. Now, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2019, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/32 "2019-05-08T23:38:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Exactly wrong. As usual, you, like others, are failing to distinguish between defending Trump - which I am not - and pointing out a stupid and flawed attack. Contrast my comments on your post with my analysis of what the actual politicians are doing. I’m not sure what you were trying to point out then, but if you’re not defending Trump then presumably you’re OK with congress pulling his taxes and upset that he’s blocked the IRS from doing so, which is good enough for me. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/33 "2019-05-09T00:03:05Z")
When people here in this thread start chanting “lock him up, lock him up”, THEN you can go on about "presumption of innocence. What you can’t do is say that congress cannot do their duty and ask for Trump’s tax returns. or ask to look at a report into Russian influence on the election because “presumption of innocence” This is EXACTLY what congress is supposed to do. Act as a branch of government. Checking the other branch. Making them accountable. “You can’t look at the results of an investigation because presumption of innocence” “You can’t look at a president’s tax forms after credible accusations of fiddling the IRS (out of Trump’s very mouth), because presumption of innocence” Both of these are wrong, wrong wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/34 "2019-05-09T01:07:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Anyway, a quick search would have shown you that I have a thing about presumption of innocence that long pre-dates Trump. In your mind does “presumption of innocence” mean that you can’t investigate crimes? If so you have a unique and interesting understanding of things, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter (which I will refuse to pay for, along with the car and house that I will steal from you). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/35 "2019-05-09T04:06:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, for starters, the guy is currently in prison for lying. Is it difficult to think that lying is bad while supporting Donald Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/36 "2019-05-09T05:03:04Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. Jesus, is reading that difficult? His OWN LAWYER says so. THAT’S why Congress is looking for his taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/37 "2019-05-09T09:43:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. > > You know, I thought that in America you had the principle of presumption of innocence. Or doesn’t that apply to people with an R after their name? Ah yes, the presumption of innocence. That magical thing that means that when you are credibly accused of criminal behavior (for example, if your personal lawyer claims that you have been committing tax fraud for a long time), not only is it unreasonable for anyone to demand you face consequences for that behavior, but even the act of _investigating_ whether those accusations are true or not is beyond the pale. This is totally how the presumption of innocence works. No, really, guys, stop laughing. > [@](#): > > The view from 4000 miles away is that they’re just playing politics, keeping the issue bubbling. Are you aware that Trump’s lawyer testified under oath to congress that [Trump almost certainly committed tax fraud](https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/02/michael-cohen-testimony-trump-tax-returns-real-estate-deals/583816/)? If not, maybe you’d do well to stay out of a discussion you don’t know the first thing about. > [@Quartz](#): > > Exactly wrong. As usual, you, like others, are failing to distinguish between defending Trump - which I am not - and pointing out a stupid and flawed attack. Contrast my comments on your post with my analysis of what the actual politicians are doing. The problem is that your attempts to point out what you call a “stupid and flawed attack” are so utterly ridiculous that it’s hard to read it as a good-faith defense of (nonexistent) legal principles and incredibly easy to read it as a bad-faith attempt to deflect attacks against Trump. No, the presumption of innocence does not mean that it is illegal for the authorities to investigate whether or not serious criminal allegations are accurate. That’s not how any of this shit works and it boggles the mind to hear someone say something so wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/38 "2019-05-09T10:31:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, for starters, the guy is currently in prison for lying. Yes, we shouldn’t trust him when he says Trump did something dodgy because he’s in prison for lying when he said that Trump _didn’t_ do something dodgy. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/39 "2019-05-09T11:21:09Z")
The reason the IRS hasn’t released Trump’s tax returns is that it would be illegal for them to do so, [as Congress has no legitimate reason for asking for them.](https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/fe1995d8-2c8b-4287-bddf-429c70425371/note/d607c872-f703-430c-ab4e-e5b10219100f.pdf#page=1) If Congress starts holding people in contempt for not breaking the law on their behalf, they would be acting no better than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/40 "2019-05-09T11:26:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The reason the IRS hasn’t released Trump’s tax returns is that it would be illegal for them to do so, [as Congress has no legitimate reason for asking for them.](https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/fe1995d8-2c8b-4287-bddf-429c70425371/note/d607c872-f703-430c-ab4e-e5b10219100f.pdf#page=1) > > If Congress starts holding people in contempt for not breaking the law on their behalf, they would be acting no better than Trump. The House of Representatives has a Constitutional responsibility of oversight. The branches of government were created co-equally - at least on paper anyway. There’s a 1924 Act that was signed into law precisely in response to the fact that, at the time, Congress didn’t have the power to access tax records. The Congress, with the president’s signature, gave itself that power, and it really doesn’t need much of a reason other than oversight. Of course, like all things, the president could litigate, and he’s obviously doing that. But he will most likely lose that court battle. The problem for Democrats is, it could take a while to get through the court system. The other problem is, there has to be a mechanism that forces Steve Mnuchin or one of his agents to physically release those documents, which isn’t easy when an administration frequently ignores the law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646.md?page=3)