# Why Does Congress Pussyfoot Around With Trump's Taxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 8, 2019, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646 "2019-05-08T01:10:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/81 "2019-05-09T21:56:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But but but, Trump’s a criminal, because YOU SAY SO. And that’s good enough. > > You know, I thought that in America you had the principle of presumption of innocence. Or doesn’t that apply to people with an R after their name? > > Tell me, have all the Democrat Senators and Representatives released their tax returns? If not, why not? > > The view from 4000 miles away is that they’re just playing politics, keeping the issue bubbling. They don’t want push to come to shove. It’s win-win for them as they keep the issue bubbling and they follow the adage of never stopping your opponent when he’s making a mistake. Quite clever, really. Don’t you know the difference between presumption of innocence and presumption that there is something to investigate. The law on tax returns says that the congressional committees can look at anybody’s tax return, not anybody except someone with an “r” in their name. And it was passed at a time that the president was directly in their cross-hairs. Another point. They are not asking him to release his returns; only to allow them to look at them, in accordance with an explicit law. They would remain a closely guarded secret. Unless they became a basis for impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/82 "2019-05-09T21:57:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [I’ll link again to the aricle from earlier](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/04/04/why-congress-might-not-get-trumps-tax-returns-226571), which goes into detail about this, but the short answer is that impeachment is not a criminal sanction, and so isn’t treated the same - but Congress has made clear that this is not an impeachment investigation. [Not so fast.](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/us/politics/pelosi-constitutional-crisis.html) Pelosi is deliberately clamping down on talk of impeachment so they can properly investigate first. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/83 "2019-05-09T22:16:28Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The law on tax returns says that the congressional committees can look at anybody’s tax return, not anybody except someone with an “r” in their name. And when it has been found by the courts that the law does, in fact say that, and is constitutional, then they can see the tax return. Which would mean the Supreme Court going against its own precedent, and (sadly) more importantly going against its partisan bias. There’s a strong implication from people in this thread that Trump should be subject to an illegal or unconstitutional investigation because he’s dangerous and evil. That’s not a great precedent to set. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/84 "2019-05-09T22:20:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And when it has been found by the courts that the law does, in fact say that, and is constitutional, then they can see the tax return. Which would mean the Supreme Court going against its own precedent, and (sadly) more importantly going against its partisan bias. What precedent? SCOTUS has never denied the use of this Congressional power, as far as I can tell. > [@](#): > > There’s a strong implication from people in this thread that Trump should be subject to an illegal or unconstitutional investigation because he’s dangerous and evil. That’s not a great precedent to set. I see no such implication. I see a lot of implication that Congress should investigate possible wrongdoing by the President and his administration, which is about as common and precedented as passing bills in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/85 "2019-05-09T22:23:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s a strong implication from people in this thread that Trump should be subject to an illegal or unconstitutional investigation because he’s dangerous and evil. That’s not a great precedent to set. There you go being super confident again. Remember our exchange from a few posts up where you admitted you shouldn’t do that? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/86 "2019-05-09T22:24:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And when it has been found by the courts that the law does, in fact say that, and is constitutional, then they can see the tax return. Which would mean the Supreme Court going against its own precedent, and (sadly) more importantly going against its partisan bias. > > There’s a strong implication from people in this thread that Trump should be subject to an illegal or unconstitutional investigation because he’s dangerous and evil. That’s not a great precedent to set. Dude what? Since when is it okay to just disobey a law? Oh wait, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/87 "2019-05-10T00:00:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My opinion, ultimately, is that Congress should not be investigating allegations of crimes Your opinion is bad and should be disregarded. Please look into civics 101. Again, this is one of those baffling “so wrong it drives me to drink” statements. There seem to be an awful lot of those flying around with regards to Trump. Wonder why. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/88 "2019-05-10T00:14:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … > There’s a strong implication from people in this thread that Trump should be subject to an illegal or unconstitutional investigation because he’s dangerous and evil. … No there isn’t. Right now Trump and those in his sway are obstructing a legal and constitutional investigation. And further, by refusing the tax information, actively breaking the law. There’s the illegal part. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/89 "2019-05-10T00:48:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What precedent? SCOTUS has never denied the use of this Congressional power, as far as I can tell. The cite from a lawyer I’ve provided say otherwise, as does the opinion from the DOJ. Congress is not supposed to investigate crimes, it is supposed to use its powers of investigation for legislative purposes. As a general rule, it is not the business of the legislature whether people are following the laws it makes, that’s the business of the executive and judiciary. Really, there are two things that can happen now. Either the IRS supplies Trump’s tax returns, hets sued by Trump, and the Supremes eventually decide whether it was legal, or they don’t, and the Supremes eventually decide whether they have to. The best solution for the IRS is to not provide them until the matter is decided, as if they do provide them and it turns out to have been illegal, that can’t then be reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/90 "2019-05-10T00:50:46Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Your opinion is bad and should be disregarded. Please look into civics 101. > > Again, this is one of those baffling “so wrong it drives me to drink” statements. There seem to be an awful lot of those flying around with regards to Trump. Wonder why. So, a Supreme Court ruling that Congress should not be investigating crimes is “so wrong it drives you to drink”? That ruling has stood for over 100 years, so it’s not a recent partisan ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/91 "2019-05-10T00:56:59Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > Dude what? Since when is it okay to just disobey a law? Oh wait, never mind. > [@bobot](#): > > No there isn’t. Right now Trump and those in his sway are obstructing a legal and constitutional investigation. And further, by refusing the tax information, actively breaking the law. There’s the illegal part. Mueller’s investigation was legal and constitutional. Congress’s, well, that’s a different matter. The DOJ have said it would be illegal for the IRS to comply with the demand for the tax returns, and there’s Supreme Court rulings that Congress should not investigate allegations of criminality, and should only use their investigative powers for legislative purposes. So why is OK for congress to disobey the law? Because you don’t like Trump? If you actually believe that, you’re as bad as him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/92 "2019-05-10T00:57:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The cite from a lawyer I’ve provided say otherwise, as does the opinion from the DOJ. Congress is not supposed to investigate crimes, it is supposed to use its powers of investigation for legislative purposes. As a general rule, it is not the business of the legislature whether people are following the laws it makes, that’s the business of the executive and judiciary. > > Really, there are two things that can happen now. Either the IRS supplies Trump’s tax returns, hets sued by Trump, and the Supremes eventually decide whether it was legal, or they don’t, and the Supremes eventually decide whether they have to. The best solution for the IRS is to not provide them until the matter is decided, as if they do provide them and it turns out to have been illegal, that can’t then be reversed. The last several decades show that what the congress is doing in entirely normal and well within their duties. Seriously - were you unaware that every recent president had had investigations by congress? None of those investigations were stopped by any court. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/93 "2019-05-10T00:58:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As a general rule, it is not the business of the legislature whether people are following the laws it makes, that’s the business of the executive and judiciary. Where did you get such nonsense? I mean seriously, what the hell are you talking about? Congress has held investigations of Trump’s collusion with Russia, Benghazi, gunwalking, a blowjob and coverup, Iran Contra, Watergate, and so much more. You’re clearly living on some other planet. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/94 "2019-05-10T01:02:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > There you go being super confident again. Remember our exchange from a few posts up where you admitted you shouldn’t do that? When I see anyone here saying that, if the congressional investigation turns out to be illegal and/or unconstitutional as both the DOJ and some lawyers are saying, it should be stopped, then I’ll accept that they don’t want an illegal and unconstitutional investigation. Alternatively, have the fucking balls to say that you want Trump gone by any means that people can get away with, and that you’re prepared to accept the damage to your institutions that will cause. But don’t just say it can’t possibly be illegal because… well, actually, no-one’s yet given a “because”. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/95 "2019-05-10T01:05:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Where did you get such nonsense? Supreme Court rulings, laws, customs, precedents, articles by lawyers, all the stuff I’ve cited. Where do you get yours from? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/96 "2019-05-10T01:14:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The last several decades show that what the congress is doing in entirely normal and well within their duties. Seriously - were you unaware that every recent president had had investigations by congress? None of those investigations were stopped by any court. I suppose the current Congressional investigation is as justified as the investigations into Obama’s ancestry or Clinton’s debauchery. The stupid thing is, if the House had framed this as an impechment rather than criminal investigation, these questions wouldn’t have arisen, but they have emphatically said it isn’t. So, they need a legitimate legislative purpose for seeing his tax returns. What is it? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/97 "2019-05-10T01:34:56Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When I see anyone here saying that, if the congressional investigation turns out to be illegal and/or unconstitutional as both the DOJ and some lawyers are saying, it should be stopped, then I’ll accept that they don’t want an illegal and unconstitutional investigation. > > Alternatively, have the fucking balls to say that you want Trump gone by any means that people can get away with, and that you’re prepared to accept the damage to your institutions that will cause. But don’t just say it can’t possibly be illegal because… well, actually, no-one’s yet given a “because”. This is a sovereign citizen level of cognitive dissonance, I’m not sure how to respond. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/98 "2019-05-10T01:47:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Mueller’s investigation was legal and constitutional. Congress’s, well, that’s a different matter. … No,it isn’t a different matter. It is clearly constitutional, justified, warranted, and necessary. > [@Steophan](#): > > …If you actually believe that, you’re as bad as him. We’re not in the pit? OK. Then, Bless Your Heart. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/99 "2019-05-10T02:07:44Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s what one side claim. The other side claim that the law does not allow that demand, and the side that make the latter claim is the Department of Justice. This will probably end up in the Supreme Court in a few years, and that Court will probably side with the DOJ. According to the Revenue Act of 1924, Congress is authorized to request anyone’s tax returns for investigative or legislative purposes. Granted SCOTUS is thoroughly tilted and politicized now, but it would be very surprising if they decided they just didn’t like this law anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2019, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646/100 "2019-05-10T02:23:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Supreme Court rulings, laws, customs, precedents, articles by lawyers, all the stuff I’ve cited. > > Where do you get yours from? Non-imaginary sources. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-congress-pussyfoot-around-with-trumps-taxes/833646.md?page=6)