# Why does Cuba forbid emigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237 "2015-04-21T23:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/1 "2015-04-21T23:57:15Z")
When Cuban relations began to thaw a few months ago, a CBS News camera panned Havana harbor and noted that there were no boats. Boats were forbidden because they could be used to escape. And that got me to thinking about the Berlin Wall and DDR as well. This is more of a general question: Why do these socialist governments forbid unhappy citizens from leaving? Why do they care? If the unhappy citizens leave, those that remain are more likely to embrace the socialism that surrounds them. Wouldn’t the leaders enjoy leading willing socialist citizens rather than disgruntled citizens? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/2 "2015-04-22T00:03:34Z")
They might not end up with very many people. They people left would tend to be those who do better under socialism than capitalism. Socialism isn’t big on individual choice. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/3 "2015-04-22T00:07:12Z")
The Best and Brightest will leave first as they have the most opportunities in the ‘Free World’. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/4 "2015-04-22T00:16:45Z")
The only way to keep a communist state going is to hold the entire population at perpetual gunpoint. No one who is aware that there is another choice actually wants to live in the open-air prison that is Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/5 "2015-04-22T00:22:26Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > When Cuban relations began to thaw a few months ago, a CBS News camera panned Havana harbor and noted that there were no boats. Boats were forbidden because they could be used to escape. And that got me to thinking about the Berlin Wall and DDR as well. This is more of a general question: Why do these socialist governments forbid unhappy citizens from leaving? Why do they care? If the unhappy citizens leave, those that remain are more likely to embrace the socialism that surrounds them. Wouldn’t the leaders enjoy leading willing socialist citizens rather than disgruntled citizens? Cuba no longer has a general ban on emigration, as of two years ago. [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-01/15/c\_132103920.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-01/15/c_132103920.htm) I don’t support the emigration ban that existed before then, but it’s somewhat understandable why they did it: most of Cuba’s neighbours have seen a massive exodus of people, largely the smartest and most educated ones, to the west. Something like 45% of Jamaicans live outside Jamaica, for example, and for some other Caribbean countries it’s over 50%. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/6 "2015-04-22T01:32:08Z")
It’s not just Cuba - plenty of Sri Lankan asylum seekers that my country has deported back home ( :mad: - don’t get me started…) have been prosecuted for ‘illegally leaving the country’ I think of it as an ego thing - like why the Kurds can’t have their own country because all the other countries who own bits of their territory won’t let them split off. ‘Don’t you dare vote with your feet! It’s going to make our country smaller! And less important!’ Or in the case of individuals leaving ‘it makes us look like a crappy place which people don’t want to live in!’ Which is, in fact, true… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/7 "2015-04-22T01:41:25Z")
A Cuban is regarded by the regime as the property of the state. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/8 "2015-04-22T01:59:42Z")
We’re all kind of low on facts in this one, aren’t we? But it can be as simple as that totalitarian regimes are just that, totalitarian: they want to control totally the society and its members and what they do and say, and you’re not doing that if people can just say “take this revolution and shove it” and walk away. The governments may not even impose the full-monty “country is a jail” scheme, but go the route of making it so it costs you dearly to leave – extortionate “exit excises”, surrender of property, limits on how many members of one same family may leave at once, convoluted exit visa processes, etc. > [@Aspidistra](#): > > It’s not just Cuba - plenty of Sri Lankan asylum seekers that my country has deported back home ( :mad: - don’t get me started…) have been prosecuted for ‘illegally leaving the country’ Yeah… I can understand that the destination country has a right to decide who gets to _get in_, even if in some cases I may be ticked off at the decision made; and why sovereign states have the authority to oppose and prevent seccession (how much of a nation and a state are you if anyone can split off?) – but the notion that it’s a crime or somehow there must be a penalty to _try to just leave for somewhere else_ just feels all sorts of wrong. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/9 "2015-04-22T02:21:54Z")
For the same reason Eastern Germany constructed the Berlin Wall: the emigrants overwhelmingly were the educated and skilled. Per Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The emigrants tended to be young and well educated, leading to the brain drain feared by officials in East Germany.[48] Yuri Andropov, then the CPSU Director on Relations with Communist and Workers Parties of Socialist Countries wrote an urgent letter, in August 28, 1958, to the Central Committee about the significant 50% increase in the number of East German intelligentsia among the refugees.[67] Andropov reported that, while the East German leadership stated that they were leaving for economic reasons, testimony from refugees indicated that the reasons were more political than material.[67] He stated “the flight of the intelligentsia has reached a particularly critical phase.”[67] SED leader Walter Ulbricht saw not only a problem from “brain drain”, but also the Grenzgänger problem of 50,000 East Berliners working in West Berlin.[67] Rural citizens disaffected after collectivization campaigns also caused the flight of tens of thousands of farmers, including one third of the wealthier farmers, leaving over 10% of East Germany’s arable land fallow and resulting in food shortages.[22] ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/10 "2015-04-22T02:37:35Z")
Brain drain affects a lot of countries. Free countries recognize that despite the damage to their country brain drain causes, free people have the right to leave. If tomorrow every doctor decides to protest Obamacare by moving to Mexico, would we stop them, despite all the death and misery it would cause? No, because doctors are not slaves to be conscripted into serving us whether they want to or not. They are free men and women and if they want to take their skills elsewhere, they have an absolute right to do so if the other country is welcoming. Freedom has a price that goes beyond fighting wars for it. It also means standing for it when it’s very inconvenient to society. ---
**Author:** ![harmonicamoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@harmonicamoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/harmonicamoon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/11 "2015-04-22T03:36:26Z")
I know quite a few Cubans. Everyone of them is very proud to be a Cuban. I asked one of them if it was true that everyone wants to leave the island? He replied, “Yes, but it is only because they can’t” leave". ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/12 "2015-04-22T05:19:52Z")
> [@harmonicamoon](#): > > I know quite a few Cubans. Everyone of them is very proud to be a Cuban. > > I asked one of them if it was true that everyone wants to leave the island? > > He replied, “Yes, but it is only because they can’t” leave". Well, the ban ended two years ago, and the bulk of the population still hasn’t left. For those who believe that emigration from Cuba is symptomatic of the evils of dreaded communism, I’ll just highlight (again) that Cuba has a _lower_ fraction of its population living in exile than most Caribbean societies. Lower than Jamaica, lower than Barbados or Guyana, lower than the Dominican Republic and much lower than Puerto Rico. Yes, the fact that until recently it was illegal probably biases that figure downward, but then again the fact that the United States is especially welcoming to Cuban refugees (as opposed to migrants from other countries) probably biases it upwards. If emigration from Cuba reflects how terrible Cuban communism is, then the fact that 45% of Jamaicans have left should indicate that capitalist democracy is even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/13 "2015-04-22T05:21:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If tomorrow every doctor decides to protest Obamacare by moving to Mexico, would we stop them, despite all the death and misery it would cause? No, because doctors are not slaves Oh, I doubt that. Of course, the premise isn’t going to happen- America is going to be a rich country for the medium term future, and doctors are going to continue to move here- which means neither of us is going to have the opportunity to be proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/14 "2015-04-22T11:11:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Well, the ban ended two years ago, and the bulk of the population still hasn’t left. It was legal to leave the USSR – sort of. And not with your whole family or your possessions. And maybe the prospect of leaving people behind meant more when the government operated a network of prison camps and you had no rights if detained. Pretending that the Cuban regime doesn’t still exert enormous thuggery to keep people from exercising free choice is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > For those who believe that emigration from Cuba is symptomatic of the evils of dreaded communism What’s with the sarcasm? Communism _is_ evil. What sort of monster denies this? > [@](#): > > , I’ll just highlight (again) that Cuba has a _lower_ fraction of its population living in exile than most Caribbean societies. Lower than Jamaica, lower than Barbados or Guyana, lower than the Dominican Republic and much lower than Puerto Rico. **Yes, the fact that until recently it was illegal probably biases that figure downward** Uh, yeah, probably! ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/15 "2015-04-22T12:23:14Z")
I would venture that there are two reasons. [ol] [li]It undermines Communist propoganda about how great the system is working.[/li][li]As others have suggested, the ones leaving are precisely the ones the country needs to stay.[/li][/ol] The thing about Communism is that in theory it’s a great idea. Have everyone working collectively to build a better society for all. But like a lot of other systems, the whole is bigger than the sum of the parts. You need for people to believe in it. And if everyone who figures they can do better under capitalism opts out, then the system breaks down. (Very similar to the “individual mandate” under Obamacare, when you think about it.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/16 "2015-04-22T12:38:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, the ban ended two years ago, and the bulk of the population still hasn’t left. > > For those who believe that emigration from Cuba is symptomatic of the evils of dreaded communism, I’ll just highlight (again) that Cuba has a lower fraction of its population living in exile than most Caribbean societies. What **Haberdash** says - it sounds a little funny to say “they lifted the ban two years ago, but not as many Cubans have left as Jamaicans who were free to leave for a hundred years”. As to the OP, the ban on emigration was imposed in 1961 because > [@](#): > > …the government tried to put the brakes on a mass migration of people fleeing after the 1959 revolution that put Fidel Castro in power. The official line of the government is that things are better under socialism. Allowing people to leave can’t be allowed because it shows that people don’t believe that things are better. And especially travel can’t be allowed because people might travel somewhere other than Cuba, and come back and tell everyone how shabby and repressive things are in Cuba as compared to everywhere else. And things are deteriorating in Cuba - > [@](#): > > [When Soviet subsidies suddenly dried up, Cuba’s fiscal deficit soared, to a peak of 33% of GDP. The government covered the gap by printing money, which stoked inflation. In real terms the average wage has dropped to just 25% of its value in 1989. A survey in Havana in 2000 found that 20% of the population was poor (defined as “at risk of being unable to satisfy their basic needs”); the national figure now is almost certainly higher.](http://www.economist.com/node/21550421) Doctors make the equivalent of $23 a month, while Castro is a billionaire. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/17 "2015-04-22T13:43:17Z")
Simple to understand. Preventing the slaves from running away to a better life always a major concern of the masters and overlords. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/18 "2015-04-22T14:15:47Z")
Nitpick: > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Lower than Jamaica, lower than Barbados or Guyana, lower than the Dominican Republic and much lower than Puerto Rico. _“One of these things is not like the others…”_ Puerto Rico having been a US territory for 117 years and the people there US Citizens for 98, there is no hurdle for free movement to and from the various States. It becomes mere relocation to where the jobs are, with no immigration procedure involved. Plus, back to Cuba: if exit has been severely restricted and penalized for 50+ years, and after being relatively liberalized it’s _still_ bureaucratically burdensome and financially unaffordable for the average citizen to arrange, you are not going to ee a massive movement out. (And FWIW the US would not really look forward to a sudden wave of a million and a half Cubans rushing in…) ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/19 "2015-04-22T14:25:11Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > …I’ll just highlight (again) that Cuba has a _lower_ fraction of its population living in exile than most Caribbean societies. Lower than Jamaica, lower than Barbados or Guyana, lower than the Dominican Republic and much lower than Puerto Rico… I would expect to see a much higher rate of Puerto Ricans living elsewhere because there literally are no immigration barriers between PR and the mainland US. No visa, not even a passport is required. Just grab any valid photo ID and hop on a plane. Puerto Ricans arrive in the mainland as full US citizens (which they were from birth anyway), and can’t be refused or deported. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/20 "2015-04-22T14:35:36Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Nitpick: > > _“One of these things is not like the others…”_ Puerto Rico having been a US territory for 117 years and the people there US Citizens for 98, there is no hurdle for free movement to and from the various States. It becomes mere relocation to where the jobs are, with no immigration procedure involved. > > Plus, back to Cuba: if exit has been severely restricted and penalized for 50+ years, and after being relatively liberalized it’s _still_ bureaucratically burdensome and financially unaffordable for the average citizen to arrange, you are not going to ee a massive movement out. (And FWIW the US would not really look forward to a sudden wave of a million and a half Cubans rushing in…) Yes, I considered not including Puerto Rico since it is an integral part of the United States. It’s obviously _very_ different from anywhere in Latin America in terms of history, politics, and economics. Still, I figured it was better to include it than not, since the emigration rate is so very high. I also agree that was a bit flippant, and the pre-2013 emigration ban probably makes it difficult to know what the ‘real’ tendency of Cubans to emigrate would be. We’ll get to see in the next decade or so, I guess. My broader point remains that you have to see Cuba in the context of its region, and the Caribbean region has very high emigration. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237.md?page=2)